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Drum brakes [message #329003] Fri, 09 February 2018 21:57 Go to next message
palerider is currently offline  palerider   United States
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Registered: September 2013
Location: Hill country, Texas
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Junior Member
I seem to remember a long time ago reading about re-placing the rear brakes shoes with larger, wider shoes and drums. Using all stock GM stuff. Maybe from truck, van etc. Anyone have that knowledge stored anywhere in their gray matter? Thanks.....Tom
Re: Drum brakes [message #329016 is a reply to message #329003] Sat, 10 February 2018 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wally is currently offline  wally   United States
Messages: 588
Registered: August 2004
Location: Omaha Nebraska
Karma: 6
Senior Member
palerider wrote on Fri, 09 February 2018 21:57
I seem to remember a long time ago reading about re-placing the rear brakes shoes with larger, wider shoes and drums. Using all stock GM stuff. Maybe from truck, van etc. Anyone have that knowledge stored anywhere in their gray matter? Thanks.....Tom

Tom Hampton at Grandview has wide shoe setups
http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html


Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook
Megasquirt III injection
Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
Manny reaction arm system
Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
Our GMC Blog
Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329017 is a reply to message #329016] Sat, 10 February 2018 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 4680
Registered: May 2010
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Senior Member
Think about a masseur walking up and down your back, barefoot. Got that?
Now think about the same person walking the same way, this time in stiletto
heels. Which would you prefer? Now, apply what you have learned from this
example to drum brake shoes. Wider ain't better.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Feb 10, 2018 7:45 AM, "Wally Anderson" wrote:

> palerider wrote on Fri, 09 February 2018 21:57
>> I seem to remember a long time ago reading about re-placing the rear
> brakes shoes with larger, wider shoes and drums. Using all stock GM stuff.
>> Maybe from truck, van etc. Anyone have that knowledge stored anywhere
> in their gray matter? Thanks.....Tom
>
> Tom Hampton at Grandview has wide shoe setups
> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
> --
> Wally Anderson
> Omaha NE
> 75 Glenbrook
> Megasquirt III injection
> Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
> Manny reaction arm system
> Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
> http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329018 is a reply to message #329017] Sat, 10 February 2018 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
emerystora is currently offline  emerystora   United States
Messages: 4233
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 9
Senior Member
What was I supposed to learn? Wider is better for pain in a message. How does this translate to “wider ain’t better” for brakes?

Yes, you have less pounds/ sq inch with wide shoes but you have more sq inches so the braking force is the same.

You should get less wear on the shoes though. Probably not enough to justify any additional cost.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CA

> On Feb 10, 2018, at 8:51 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>
> Think about a masseur walking up and down your back, barefoot. Got that?
> Now think about the same person walking the same way, this time in stiletto
> heels. Which would you prefer? Now, apply what you have learned from this
> example to drum brake shoes. Wider ain't better.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
>> On Feb 10, 2018 7:45 AM, "Wally Anderson" wrote:
>>
>> palerider wrote on Fri, 09 February 2018 21:57
>>> I seem to remember a long time ago reading about re-placing the rear
>> brakes shoes with larger, wider shoes and drums. Using all stock GM stuff.
>>> Maybe from truck, van etc. Anyone have that knowledge stored anywhere
>> in their gray matter? Thanks.....Tom
>>
>> Tom Hampton at Grandview has wide shoe setups
>> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>> --
>> Wally Anderson
>> Omaha NE
>> 75 Glenbrook
>> Megasquirt III injection
>> Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
>> Manny reaction arm system
>> Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
>> http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

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Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329019 is a reply to message #329017] Sat, 10 February 2018 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jimk is currently offline  jimk   United States
Messages: 4617
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 5
Senior Member
From an purely engineering point, it is about the coefficient of friction
and not the area.
Having stated that, I have seen where the 3" shoes have improved the
braking.
Like anything, when you replace an old with new, it will do better.

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 7:51 AM, James Hupy wrote:

> Think about a masseur walking up and down your back, barefoot. Got that?
> Now think about the same person walking the same way, this time in stiletto
> heels. Which would you prefer? Now, apply what you have learned from this
> example to drum brake shoes. Wider ain't better.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
> On Feb 10, 2018 7:45 AM, "Wally Anderson" wrote:
>
>> palerider wrote on Fri, 09 February 2018 21:57
>>> I seem to remember a long time ago reading about re-placing the rear
>> brakes shoes with larger, wider shoes and drums. Using all stock GM
> stuff.
>>> Maybe from truck, van etc. Anyone have that knowledge stored anywhere
>> in their gray matter? Thanks.....Tom
>>
>> Tom Hampton at Grandview has wide shoe setups
>> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>> --
>> Wally Anderson
>> Omaha NE
>> 75 Glenbrook
>> Megasquirt III injection
>> Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
>> Manny reaction arm system
>> Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
>> http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>



--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk-AT-appliedairfilters-DOT-com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Applied/GMC
jimk-AT-appliedairfilters-DOT-com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329020 is a reply to message #329017] Sat, 10 February 2018 10:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
palerider is currently offline  palerider   United States
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2013
Location: Hill country, Texas
Karma: 0
Junior Member
Gosh Mr Hupy, Think I will replace the 11x2 1/2 rear stuff on my 66 Shelby with some 49 chevy stuff. Look at the money I will save and how much better it will stop

[Updated on: Sat, 10 February 2018 10:31]

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Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329021 is a reply to message #329018] Sat, 10 February 2018 10:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 4680
Registered: May 2010
Karma: 34
Senior Member
Didn't want to get into the math, thought EVERYONE would get a visual image
of stiletto heels on their back.
Same amount of hydraulic pressure applied to a larger surface area,
results in less pressure per square inch. Less friction between the drum
and shoes. Does the increased shoe area at less pressure per square inch
equal less shoe area at the same pressure? You discuss that one. I think
that there is no advantage to more lining area at the same pressure. Wear
rate? If there is less friction, linings might not wear as quickly.
The whole deal with brakes is to convert kinetic energy into heat
energy. Simply put, rotors and calipers simply do a much better job of
that. Heat transfer to the airstream is better, too, so less chance of
brake fade in heavy use. Like motor homes equipped with car brakes.
I have installed Buick/Cadillac calipers with cable operated caliper
pistons on GMC'S for parking brakes. They will work, properly installed and
adjusted. And they meet D.O.T. regulations.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Feb 10, 2018 8:06 AM, "Emery Stora" wrote:

> What was I supposed to learn? Wider is better for pain in a message. How
> does this translate to “wider ain’t better” for brakes?
>
> Yes, you have less pounds/ sq inch with wide shoes but you have more sq
> inches so the braking force is the same.
>
> You should get less wear on the shoes though. Probably not enough to
> justify any additional cost.
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick, CA
>
>> On Feb 10, 2018, at 8:51 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>>
>> Think about a masseur walking up and down your back, barefoot. Got that?
>> Now think about the same person walking the same way, this time in
> stiletto
>> heels. Which would you prefer? Now, apply what you have learned from
> this
>> example to drum brake shoes. Wider ain't better.
>> Jim Hupy
>> Salem, Or
>> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>>
>>> On Feb 10, 2018 7:45 AM, "Wally Anderson"
> wrote:
>>>
>>> palerider wrote on Fri, 09 February 2018 21:57
>>>> I seem to remember a long time ago reading about re-placing the rear
>>> brakes shoes with larger, wider shoes and drums. Using all stock GM
> stuff.
>>>> Maybe from truck, van etc. Anyone have that knowledge stored anywhere
>>> in their gray matter? Thanks.....Tom
>>>
>>> Tom Hampton at Grandview has wide shoe setups
>>> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>>> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>>> --
>>> Wally Anderson
>>> Omaha NE
>>> 75 Glenbrook
>>> Megasquirt III injection
>>> Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
>>> Manny reaction arm system
>>> Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
>>> http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329022 is a reply to message #329021] Sat, 10 February 2018 10:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
palerider is currently offline  palerider   United States
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2013
Location: Hill country, Texas
Karma: 0
Junior Member
Wasn't arguing against disc brakes. Any fool knows they are better. Just asking a dumb question
Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329024 is a reply to message #329021] Sat, 10 February 2018 10:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jimk is currently offline  jimk   United States
Messages: 4617
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 5
Senior Member
Once one understands how the GM caliper with the paarking brake functions,
like Jim H tates, they work.
Many years ago people stated that they could not get them to work,
After asking several, I ran int Walt Halley that said they do IF you know
what to do. Well, I had to chase him around for a whole day till he finally
showed me why others could not mak it work.
It requires short stud on the pad which prevents the piston from rotating.
Without this the caliper will not adjust and the braking become very poor.
John Bush and Rick Flanagan worked on the parking caliper system for us and
John came up with a simple and inexpensive solution which works.




On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:26 AM, James Hupy wrote:

> Didn't want to get into the math, thought EVERYONE would get a visual image
> of stiletto heels on their back.
> Same amount of hydraulic pressure applied to a larger surface area,
> results in less pressure per square inch. Less friction between the drum
> and shoes. Does the increased shoe area at less pressure per square inch
> equal less shoe area at the same pressure? You discuss that one. I think
> that there is no advantage to more lining area at the same pressure. Wear
> rate? If there is less friction, linings might not wear as quickly.
> The whole deal with brakes is to convert kinetic energy into heat
> energy. Simply put, rotors and calipers simply do a much better job of
> that. Heat transfer to the airstream is better, too, so less chance of
> brake fade in heavy use. Like motor homes equipped with car brakes.
> I have installed Buick/Cadillac calipers with cable operated caliper
> pistons on GMC'S for parking brakes. They will work, properly installed and
> adjusted. And they meet D.O.T. regulations.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
> On Feb 10, 2018 8:06 AM, "Emery Stora" wrote:
>
>> What was I supposed to learn? Wider is better for pain in a message. How
>> does this translate to “wider ain’t better” for brakes?
>>
>> Yes, you have less pounds/ sq inch with wide shoes but you have more sq
>> inches so the braking force is the same.
>>
>> You should get less wear on the shoes though. Probably not enough to
>> justify any additional cost.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>> 77 Kingsley
>> Frederick, CA
>>
>>> On Feb 10, 2018, at 8:51 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>>>
>>> Think about a masseur walking up and down your back, barefoot. Got
> that?
>>> Now think about the same person walking the same way, this time in
>> stiletto
>>> heels. Which would you prefer? Now, apply what you have learned from
>> this
>>> example to drum brake shoes. Wider ain't better.
>>> Jim Hupy
>>> Salem, Or
>>> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>>>
>>>> On Feb 10, 2018 7:45 AM, "Wally Anderson"
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> palerider wrote on Fri, 09 February 2018 21:57
>>>> > I seem to remember a long time ago reading about re-placing the rear
>>>> brakes shoes with larger, wider shoes and drums. Using all stock GM
>> stuff.
>>>> > Maybe from truck, van etc. Anyone have that knowledge stored
> anywhere
>>>> in their gray matter? Thanks.....Tom
>>>>
>>>> Tom Hampton at Grandview has wide shoe setups
>>>> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>>>> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>>>> --
>>>> Wally Anderson
>>>> Omaha NE
>>>> 75 Glenbrook
>>>> Megasquirt III injection
>>>> Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
>>>> Manny reaction arm system
>>>> Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
>>>> http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>



--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk-AT-appliedairfilters-DOT-com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk-AT-appliedairfilters-DOT-com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329027 is a reply to message #329024] Sat, 10 February 2018 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kingsley Coach is currently offline  Kingsley Coach   United States
Messages: 2533
Registered: March 2009
Karma: 2
Senior Member
Let's take a moment here......" same person walking the same way, this time
in stiletto
heels "
James, what does she look like?

Mike in NS

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Jim Kanomata
wrote:

> Once one understands how the GM caliper with the paarking brake functions,
> like Jim H tates, they work.
> Many years ago people stated that they could not get them to work,
> After asking several, I ran int Walt Halley that said they do IF you know
> what to do. Well, I had to chase him around for a whole day till he finally
> showed me why others could not mak it work.
> It requires short stud on the pad which prevents the piston from rotating.
> Without this the caliper will not adjust and the braking become very poor.
> John Bush and Rick Flanagan worked on the parking caliper system for us and
> John came up with a simple and inexpensive solution which works.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:26 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>
>> Didn't want to get into the math, thought EVERYONE would get a visual
> image
>> of stiletto heels on their back.
>> Same amount of hydraulic pressure applied to a larger surface area,
>> results in less pressure per square inch. Less friction between the drum
>> and shoes. Does the increased shoe area at less pressure per square inch
>> equal less shoe area at the same pressure? You discuss that one. I think
>> that there is no advantage to more lining area at the same pressure. Wear
>> rate? If there is less friction, linings might not wear as quickly.
>> The whole deal with brakes is to convert kinetic energy into heat
>> energy. Simply put, rotors and calipers simply do a much better job of
>> that. Heat transfer to the airstream is better, too, so less chance of
>> brake fade in heavy use. Like motor homes equipped with car brakes.
>> I have installed Buick/Cadillac calipers with cable operated caliper
>> pistons on GMC'S for parking brakes. They will work, properly installed
> and
>> adjusted. And they meet D.O.T. regulations.
>> Jim Hupy
>> Salem, Or
>> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>>
>> On Feb 10, 2018 8:06 AM, "Emery Stora" wrote:
>>
>>> What was I supposed to learn? Wider is better for pain in a message.
> How
>>> does this translate to “wider ain’t better” for brakes?
>>>
>>> Yes, you have less pounds/ sq inch with wide shoes but you have more sq
>>> inches so the braking force is the same.
>>>
>>> You should get less wear on the shoes though. Probably not enough to
>>> justify any additional cost.
>>>
>>> Emery Stora
>>> 77 Kingsley
>>> Frederick, CA
>>>
>>>> On Feb 10, 2018, at 8:51 AM, James Hupy
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Think about a masseur walking up and down your back, barefoot. Got
>> that?
>>>> Now think about the same person walking the same way, this time in
>>> stiletto
>>>> heels. Which would you prefer? Now, apply what you have learned from
>>> this
>>>> example to drum brake shoes. Wider ain't better.
>>>> Jim Hupy
>>>> Salem, Or
>>>> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>>>>
>>>> > On Feb 10, 2018 7:45 AM, "Wally Anderson"
>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > palerider wrote on Fri, 09 February 2018 21:57
>>>> >> I seem to remember a long time ago reading about re-placing the
> rear
>>>> > brakes shoes with larger, wider shoes and drums. Using all stock GM
>>> stuff.
>>>> >> Maybe from truck, van etc. Anyone have that knowledge stored
>> anywhere
>>>> > in their gray matter? Thanks.....Tom
>>>> >
>>>> > Tom Hampton at Grandview has wide shoe setups
>>>> > http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>>>> > http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>>>> > --
>>>> > Wally Anderson
>>>> > Omaha NE
>>>> > 75 Glenbrook
>>>> > Megasquirt III injection
>>>> > Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
>>>> > Manny reaction arm system
>>>> > Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
>>>> > http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > GMCnet mailing list
>>>> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> jimk-AT-appliedairfilters-DOT-com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>



--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS

Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !
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Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329028 is a reply to message #329027] Sat, 10 February 2018 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 4680
Registered: May 2010
Karma: 34
Senior Member
Hey, this is the Era of equal opportunity. I never said "she". Funny how
our minds work, eh. Oh what pleasant memories we create within ourselves.
(Grin)
Jim Hupy

On Feb 10, 2018 9:51 AM, "Kingsley Coach" wrote:

> Let's take a moment here......" same person walking the same way, this time
> in stiletto
> heels "
> James, what does she look like?
>
> Mike in NS
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Jim Kanomata
> wrote:
>
>> Once one understands how the GM caliper with the paarking brake
> functions,
>> like Jim H tates, they work.
>> Many years ago people stated that they could not get them to work,
>> After asking several, I ran int Walt Halley that said they do IF you know
>> what to do. Well, I had to chase him around for a whole day till he
> finally
>> showed me why others could not mak it work.
>> It requires short stud on the pad which prevents the piston from
> rotating.
>> Without this the caliper will not adjust and the braking become very
> poor.
>> John Bush and Rick Flanagan worked on the parking caliper system for us
> and
>> John came up with a simple and inexpensive solution which works.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:26 AM, James Hupy
> wrote:
>>
>>> Didn't want to get into the math, thought EVERYONE would get a visual
>> image
>>> of stiletto heels on their back.
>>> Same amount of hydraulic pressure applied to a larger surface
> area,
>>> results in less pressure per square inch. Less friction between the
> drum
>>> and shoes. Does the increased shoe area at less pressure per square
> inch
>>> equal less shoe area at the same pressure? You discuss that one. I
> think
>>> that there is no advantage to more lining area at the same pressure.
> Wear
>>> rate? If there is less friction, linings might not wear as quickly.
>>> The whole deal with brakes is to convert kinetic energy into heat
>>> energy. Simply put, rotors and calipers simply do a much better job of
>>> that. Heat transfer to the airstream is better, too, so less chance of
>>> brake fade in heavy use. Like motor homes equipped with car brakes.
>>> I have installed Buick/Cadillac calipers with cable operated
> caliper
>>> pistons on GMC'S for parking brakes. They will work, properly installed
>> and
>>> adjusted. And they meet D.O.T. regulations.
>>> Jim Hupy
>>> Salem, Or
>>> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>>>
>>> On Feb 10, 2018 8:06 AM, "Emery Stora" wrote:
>>>
>>>> What was I supposed to learn? Wider is better for pain in a message.
>> How
>>>> does this translate to “wider ain’t better” for brakes?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you have less pounds/ sq inch with wide shoes but you have more
> sq
>>>> inches so the braking force is the same.
>>>>
>>>> You should get less wear on the shoes though. Probably not enough to
>>>> justify any additional cost.
>>>>
>>>> Emery Stora
>>>> 77 Kingsley
>>>> Frederick, CA
>>>>
>>>> > On Feb 10, 2018, at 8:51 AM, James Hupy
>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Think about a masseur walking up and down your back, barefoot. Got
>>> that?
>>>> > Now think about the same person walking the same way, this time in
>>>> stiletto
>>>> > heels. Which would you prefer? Now, apply what you have learned
> from
>>>> this
>>>> > example to drum brake shoes. Wider ain't better.
>>>> > Jim Hupy
>>>> > Salem, Or
>>>> > 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Feb 10, 2018 7:45 AM, "Wally Anderson"
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> palerider wrote on Fri, 09 February 2018 21:57
>>>> >>> I seem to remember a long time ago reading about re-placing the
>> rear
>>>> >> brakes shoes with larger, wider shoes and drums. Using all stock
> GM
>>>> stuff.
>>>> >>> Maybe from truck, van etc. Anyone have that knowledge stored
>>> anywhere
>>>> >> in their gray matter? Thanks.....Tom
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Tom Hampton at Grandview has wide shoe setups
>>>> >> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>>>> >> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/partsupgrades.html
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Wally Anderson
>>>> >> Omaha NE
>>>> >> 75 Glenbrook
>>>> >> Megasquirt III injection
>>>> >> Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
>>>> >> Manny reaction arm system
>>>> >> Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
>>>> >> http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> >> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > GMCnet mailing list
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
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>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jim Kanomata
>> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
>> jimk-AT-appliedairfilters-DOT-com
>> http://www.appliedgmc.com
>> 1-800-752-7502
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
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>
>
>
> --
> Michael Beaton
> 1977 Kingsley 26-11
> 1977 Eleganza II 26-3
> Antigonish, NS
>
> Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329029 is a reply to message #329028] Sat, 10 February 2018 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Denney is currently offline  Richard Denney   United States
Messages: 648
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 2
Senior Member
Jim, if *you* are wearing the stiletto heels, I don’t think we want to know
about it.

Rick “just sayin’” Denney

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 1:07 PM James Hupy wrote:

> Hey, this is the Era of equal opportunity. I never said "she". Funny how
> our minds work, eh. Oh what pleasant memories we create within ourselves.
> (Grin)
> Jim Hupy
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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Re: Drum brakes [message #329032 is a reply to message #329003] Sat, 10 February 2018 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Johnny Bridges is currently offline  Johnny Bridges   United States
Messages: 6402
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: 34
Senior Member
Basically, it's 'yes, no, and maybe.'
If the brake can lock the wheel it has sufficient power to stop whatever, eventually. Properly applying the brake is a differenny story. Discs withstand heat way better than drums. Here it matters not... in the West in makes a difference.

The greatest improvement over stock is a reaction arm system.

--johnny


76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
Re: Drum brakes [message #329036 is a reply to message #329032] Sat, 10 February 2018 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hal kading is currently offline  hal kading   United States
Messages: 629
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Cruces NM
Karma: 4
Senior Member
Darn, now I'll have an image of Jim H in stiletto heels all day!

Hal Kading 1978 Buskirk 502 Las Cruces NM
Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329037 is a reply to message #329036] Sat, 10 February 2018 14:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 4680
Registered: May 2010
Karma: 34
Senior Member
Well, now I know who to avoid at the next rally! I had a minds eye picture
of something else entirely. Me in heels, that would be funny alright.
VBG.
Jim Hupy

On Feb 10, 2018 11:53 AM, "Hal Kading" wrote:

> Darn, now I'll have an image of Jim H in stiletto heels all day!
> --
> Hal Kading 1978 Buskirk 502 Las Cruces NM
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329038 is a reply to message #329017] Sat, 10 February 2018 14:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Pryor is currently offline  Thomas Pryor   United States
Messages: 107
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Yeah, its me again the guy that brings reaction arms to your rear wheels
without disturbing the hydraulics or the parking brake.

For my coach, a modified 23B that has only been driven about 5000 miles
mostly to Rapid City, SD and is now up on blocks in my garage here in Lake
Wales Fl. I am doing more mods and will share in future. Upon my return
from Rapid City to Florida, I had the fortune ( misfortune) to tailgate
Uncle Ken Henderson in his 23B with a Cadillac engine and all wheel disc
brakes and effective but legally questionable "line lock" parking brake.
Why questionable?.....sustained pressure on brake cylinder seals that were
designed to see only momentary duty. As Rob Mueller about his run away
coach experience.

That said, I was mostly able to keep up with him over hill and dale with
effective braking and acceleration. (note: 120k on my 455 with Caspro
power drive) My rear brakes were standard drum brakes with no reaction
arms at the time.

A couple years back when I visited Jim K in Calif I modified one of his
coaches with the following:


- INTERMEDIATE WHEELS were modified to use the GM3 caliper and yellow
pads. A GM3 caliper is the same 80MM caliper body used on the Front wheels
of our coaches. The intermediate wheel was fitted with a reaction arm.
- The rear wheels were also fitted with a reaction arm but remained as
stock configuration drum brake.
- PARKING BRAKE CABLES were modified to include pulleys at all
junction points. The dual cable that actuates the both rear and
intermediate brake shoes was abandoned. A new cable extension was
introduced that ONLY ACTUATES the rear wheel brake shoes.


I then tuned the parking brake to eliminate all "LASH" in the cable
system. I followed a very specific sequence and ended up using a 12"
extension on the PB lever to get it "OVER THE TOP"............ that
stretched the cable even more. I then released some tension at the top of
the parking brake handle to achieve a no drag condition on the rear brake
shoe. Jim & I then took the coach for a drive and skidded the
intermediate tire in some aggressive stops. we were both happy with the
service brake enhancement. note: With the reaction arm the rears skidded
also.

We then turned our attention to the Parking brake. I instructed Jim to
engage the parking brake, rock the coach front to rear. He took direction
well and then proceeded to drive off as many owners do with the parking
brake engaged. IT TOOK 3000 ENGINE RPM TO MOVE THE COACH. I told Jim at
the time with the transmission groaning, I could not see how even the
most inattentive owner could drive without releasing the parking brake.

Alas, I had to catch a plane back to Fl and no further assessment was done.

So with my coach being prepared for test launch this summer my Brake system
will consist of:


- new SS brake lines
- new Proportioning valve
- swap front to rear brake lines out of Master cylinder
- Front discs as original with yellow pads
- Intermediate with front disc calipers and discs.......yellow pads and
reaction arm.
- The rears will be stock drums and probably no reaction arm. I will
not plumb the rear wheel cylinder. The rear drums will function ONLY as a
parking brake. I have located some very aggressive brake shoe material
intended for aggressive holding power, not for service brakes use.


JWID.

BTW, Can anyone "report out" using the Chuck Algaur (sp?) intermediate
12" disc system and eliminating the rear drum to be used a parking brake
only?





Regards,

Tom Pryor
4188 Limerick Dr
Lake Wales, Fl 33859
Cell 248 470 9186

Living on a waterfront is not a matter of life or death. Its more
important than that.
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Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329039 is a reply to message #329038] Sat, 10 February 2018 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Denney is currently offline  Richard Denney   United States
Messages: 648
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 2
Senior Member
You don’t need brakes to follow KenH. He never uses them. :)

Rick “who has also followed Ken” Denney


On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 3:51 PM Thomas Pryor wrote:

> Yeah, its me again the guy that brings reaction arms to your rear wheels
> without disturbing the hydraulics or the parking brake.
>
> For my coach, a modified 23B that has only been driven about 5000 miles
> mostly to Rapid City, SD and is now up on blocks in my garage here in Lake
> Wales Fl. I am doing more mods and will share in future. Upon my return
> from Rapid City to Florida, I had the fortune ( misfortune) to tailgate
> Uncle Ken Henderson in his 23B with a Cadillac engine and all wheel disc
> brakes and effective but legally questionable "line lock" parking brake.
> Why questionable?.....sustained pressure on brake cylinder seals that were
> designed to see only momentary duty. As Rob Mueller about his run away
> coach experience.
>
> That said, I was mostly able to keep up with him over hill and dale with
> effective braking and acceleration. (note: 120k on my 455 with Caspro
> power drive) My rear brakes were standard drum brakes with no reaction
> arms at the time.
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329042 is a reply to message #329039] Sat, 10 February 2018 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
Messages: 7380
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 41
Senior Member
Come on now, you Guys! You're trying to make me sound like Jim K, Jr. I
don't speed. I just set the cruise control on the speed limit and leave
it there the rest of the day.

And it wasn't my fault you put the coach out of service, Tom!

(He really did keep up pretty well in the mountains -- sometimes.)

​Ken H.


On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Richard Denney wrote:

> You don’t need brakes to follow KenH. He never uses them. :)
>
> Rick “who has also followed Ken” Denney
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 3:51 PM Thomas Pryor wrote:
> ​...
> Upon my return
>> from Rapid City to Florida, I had the fortune ( misfortune) to tailgate
>> Uncle Ken Henderson in his 23B with a Cadillac engine and all wheel disc
>> brakes and effective but legally questionable "line lock" parking brake.
>>
> ​...
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329043 is a reply to message #329038] Sat, 10 February 2018 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15587
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 42
Senior Member
Tom,

"Ask Rob Mueller about his run away coach experience."

I don't remember a run away coach experience. I did have a P-10 master cylinder fail on our first tour but it was at low speed and I
was able to stop the coach and fix the problem by replacing the master cylinder.

Double Trouble came with 6 wheel disks; OEM on the front, Caddy disks on the middle / rear; and no parking / emergency brake. In
order to pass NJ inspection I had Ken Frey swap the rear disks for drums, hook up the cables, and install rebuilt 80mm calipers on
the front and middle calipers. I have been quite happy with the way it stops. So much so that's the braking system the Kingsley will
run.

The day before I took Double Trouble for inspection I adjusted the shoes and the brake cables and adjusted the knob on the end of
the brake lever to put the max tension on the cables. I watched the inspector strain to pull the parking brake on before he ran the
test and was very happy when it passed.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808



-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of Thomas Pryor
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 7:51 AM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes

Yeah, its me again the guy that brings reaction arms to your rear wheels
without disturbing the hydraulics or the parking brake.

For my coach, a modified 23B that has only been driven about 5000 miles
mostly to Rapid City, SD and is now up on blocks in my garage here in Lake
Wales Fl. I am doing more mods and will share in future. Upon my return
from Rapid City to Florida, I had the fortune ( misfortune) to tailgate
Uncle Ken Henderson in his 23B with a Cadillac engine and all wheel disc
brakes and effective but legally questionable "line lock" parking brake.
Why questionable?.....sustained pressure on brake cylinder seals that were
designed to see only momentary duty. As Rob Mueller about his run away
coach experience.

That said, I was mostly able to keep up with him over hill and dale with
effective braking and acceleration. (note: 120k on my 455 with Caspro
power drive) My rear brakes were standard drum brakes with no reaction
arms at the time.

A couple years back when I visited Jim K in Calif I modified one of his
coaches with the following:


- INTERMEDIATE WHEELS were modified to use the GM3 caliper and yellow
pads. A GM3 caliper is the same 80MM caliper body used on the Front wheels
of our coaches. The intermediate wheel was fitted with a reaction arm.
- The rear wheels were also fitted with a reaction arm but remained as
stock configuration drum brake.
- PARKING BRAKE CABLES were modified to include pulleys at all
junction points. The dual cable that actuates the both rear and
intermediate brake shoes was abandoned. A new cable extension was
introduced that ONLY ACTUATES the rear wheel brake shoes.


I then tuned the parking brake to eliminate all "LASH" in the cable
system. I followed a very specific sequence and ended up using a 12"
extension on the PB lever to get it "OVER THE TOP"............ that
stretched the cable even more. I then released some tension at the top of
the parking brake handle to achieve a no drag condition on the rear brake
shoe. Jim & I then took the coach for a drive and skidded the
intermediate tire in some aggressive stops. we were both happy with the
service brake enhancement. note: With the reaction arm the rears skidded
also.

We then turned our attention to the Parking brake. I instructed Jim to
engage the parking brake, rock the coach front to rear. He took direction
well and then proceeded to drive off as many owners do with the parking
brake engaged. IT TOOK 3000 ENGINE RPM TO MOVE THE COACH. I told Jim at
the time with the transmission groaning, I could not see how even the
most inattentive owner could drive without releasing the parking brake.

Alas, I had to catch a plane back to Fl and no further assessment was done.

So with my coach being prepared for test launch this summer my Brake system
will consist of:


- new SS brake lines
- new Proportioning valve
- swap front to rear brake lines out of Master cylinder
- Front discs as original with yellow pads
- Intermediate with front disc calipers and discs.......yellow pads and
reaction arm.
- The rears will be stock drums and probably no reaction arm. I will
not plumb the rear wheel cylinder. The rear drums will function ONLY as a
parking brake. I have located some very aggressive brake shoe material
intended for aggressive holding power, not for service brakes use.


JWID.

BTW, Can anyone "report out" using the Chuck Algaur (sp?) intermediate
12" disc system and eliminating the rear drum to be used a parking brake
only?





Regards,

Tom Pryor
4188 Limerick Dr
Lake Wales, Fl 33859
Cell 248 470 9186

Living on a waterfront is not a matter of life or death. Its more
important than that.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org


_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes [message #329044 is a reply to message #329043] Sat, 10 February 2018 17:31 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 4680
Registered: May 2010
Karma: 34
Senior Member
The best non factory emergency/parking brake I have seen on a coach was on
Chuck Algur's coach. It consisted of two triangular rubber blocks connected
by a right hand/left hand threaded electric actuator. It was installed
between the two rear tires vertically with the small ends of the triangles
facing towards each other. When the actuator operated, the blocks either
came closer to each other or further apart. When they came towards each
other, they wedged into the two rear tires, effectively preventing them
from moving. When I talked to Chuck about the setup, it was at the Western
States Rally at Auburn, California, and his system was in the prototype
stage. He said that it worked well as a parking brake, but he was working
out the best angle for the emergency brake function. He became Ill shortly
after that rally. I don't know if he ever fully developed the system or
not. You could not move the coach with the engine when it was set while
parked. Kinda like electric wheel chocks.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Feb 10, 2018 2:19 PM, "Rob Mueller" wrote:

> Tom,
>
> "Ask Rob Mueller about his run away coach experience."
>
> I don't remember a run away coach experience. I did have a P-10 master
> cylinder fail on our first tour but it was at low speed and I
> was able to stop the coach and fix the problem by replacing the master
> cylinder.
>
> Double Trouble came with 6 wheel disks; OEM on the front, Caddy disks on
> the middle / rear; and no parking / emergency brake. In
> order to pass NJ inspection I had Ken Frey swap the rear disks for drums,
> hook up the cables, and install rebuilt 80mm calipers on
> the front and middle calipers. I have been quite happy with the way it
> stops. So much so that's the braking system the Kingsley will
> run.
>
> The day before I took Double Trouble for inspection I adjusted the shoes
> and the brake cables and adjusted the knob on the end of
> the brake lever to put the max tension on the cables. I watched the
> inspector strain to pull the parking brake on before he ran the
> test and was very happy when it passed.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of
> Thomas Pryor
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 7:51 AM
> To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Drum brakes
>
> Yeah, its me again the guy that brings reaction arms to your rear wheels
> without disturbing the hydraulics or the parking brake.
>
> For my coach, a modified 23B that has only been driven about 5000 miles
> mostly to Rapid City, SD and is now up on blocks in my garage here in Lake
> Wales Fl. I am doing more mods and will share in future. Upon my return
> from Rapid City to Florida, I had the fortune ( misfortune) to tailgate
> Uncle Ken Henderson in his 23B with a Cadillac engine and all wheel disc
> brakes and effective but legally questionable "line lock" parking brake.
> Why questionable?.....sustained pressure on brake cylinder seals that were
> designed to see only momentary duty. As Rob Mueller about his run away
> coach experience.
>
> That said, I was mostly able to keep up with him over hill and dale with
> effective braking and acceleration. (note: 120k on my 455 with Caspro
> power drive) My rear brakes were standard drum brakes with no reaction
> arms at the time.
>
> A couple years back when I visited Jim K in Calif I modified one of his
> coaches with the following:
>
>
> - INTERMEDIATE WHEELS were modified to use the GM3 caliper and yellow
> pads. A GM3 caliper is the same 80MM caliper body used on the Front
> wheels
> of our coaches. The intermediate wheel was fitted with a reaction
> arm.
> - The rear wheels were also fitted with a reaction arm but remained as
> stock configuration drum brake.
> - PARKING BRAKE CABLES were modified to include pulleys at all
> junction points. The dual cable that actuates the both rear and
> intermediate brake shoes was abandoned. A new cable extension was
> introduced that ONLY ACTUATES the rear wheel brake shoes.
>
>
> I then tuned the parking brake to eliminate all "LASH" in the cable
> system. I followed a very specific sequence and ended up using a 12"
> extension on the PB lever to get it "OVER THE TOP"............ that
> stretched the cable even more. I then released some tension at the top of
> the parking brake handle to achieve a no drag condition on the rear brake
> shoe. Jim & I then took the coach for a drive and skidded the
> intermediate tire in some aggressive stops. we were both happy with the
> service brake enhancement. note: With the reaction arm the rears skidded
> also.
>
> We then turned our attention to the Parking brake. I instructed Jim to
> engage the parking brake, rock the coach front to rear. He took direction
> well and then proceeded to drive off as many owners do with the parking
> brake engaged. IT TOOK 3000 ENGINE RPM TO MOVE THE COACH. I told Jim at
> the time with the transmission groaning, I could not see how even the
> most inattentive owner could drive without releasing the parking brake.
>
> Alas, I had to catch a plane back to Fl and no further assessment was
> done.
>
> So with my coach being prepared for test launch this summer my Brake system
> will consist of:
>
>
> - new SS brake lines
> - new Proportioning valve
> - swap front to rear brake lines out of Master cylinder
> - Front discs as original with yellow pads
> - Intermediate with front disc calipers and discs.......yellow pads and
> reaction arm.
> - The rears will be stock drums and probably no reaction arm. I will
> not plumb the rear wheel cylinder. The rear drums will function ONLY
> as a
> parking brake. I have located some very aggressive brake shoe material
> intended for aggressive holding power, not for service brakes use.
>
>
> JWID.
>
> BTW, Can anyone "report out" using the Chuck Algaur (sp?) intermediate
> 12" disc system and eliminating the rear drum to be used a parking brake
> only?
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Pryor
> 4188 Limerick Dr
> Lake Wales, Fl 33859
> Cell 248 470 9186
>
> Living on a waterfront is not a matter of life or death. Its more
> important than that.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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