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| [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage at -25 when tested to +5? [message #327597] |
Sat, 30 December 2017 10:55  |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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I've never thought about this before. The neighbor that lives across the street is serving in the Middle East now. I got an e-mail from him about his truck that's sitting outside. He thinks the antifreeze is at +5. Our highs for this next week are to be between -2 to -10. Nights to be between -12 to -25. Not relevant to this. The wind chills are expected to be between -20 to -35 for the day. -20 to possible -40 at night. My GMC is inside at +70. I'm going to go play with the GMC for the next week. Stay warm my friends. Bob Dunahugh
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| Re: [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage at -25 when tested to +5? [message #327600 is a reply to message #327597] |
Sat, 30 December 2017 13:53  |
cbryan
Messages: 451
Registered: May 2012
Location: Ennis, Texas
Karma: 3
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Emery,
Thanks for setting us straight. From long ago, I recall that if you are protected to -10 F, with ethylene glycol antifreeze, lower temperatures will result in ice crystals forming inside the liquid, not as a destructive solid. But +5 is too high for that to occur.
Just what I read back in the last century.
Carey
Carey from Ennis, Texas
78 Royale, 500 Cadillac, Rance Baxter EFI.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage at -25 when tested to +5? [message #327602 is a reply to message #327600] |
Sat, 30 December 2017 14:09 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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I would think it might depend on your definition of damage.
You are not likely to crack a block but you might pop out the freeze plugs which can be a bit of a job to replace.
Emery Stora
> On Dec 30, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Carey Bryan wrote:
>
> Emery,
>
> Thanks for setting us straight. From long ago, I recall that if you are protected to -10 F, with ethylene glycol antifreeze, lower temperatures will
> result in ice crystals forming inside the liquid, not as a destructive solid. But +5 is too high for that to occur.
>
> Just what I read back in the last century.
>
> Carey
> --
> Carey from Ennis, Texas
> 78 Royale, 500 Cadillac, Rance Baxter EFI.
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage at -25 when tested to +5? [message #327605 is a reply to message #327597] |
Sat, 30 December 2017 15:40 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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BobDunahugh wrote on Sat, 30 December 2017 11:55 I've never thought about this before. The neighbor that lives across the street is serving in the Middle East now. I got an e-mail from him about his truck that's sitting outside. He thinks the antifreeze is at +5. Our highs for this next week are to be between -2 to -10. Nights to be between -12 to -25. Not relevant to this. The wind chills are expected to be between -20 to -35 for the day. -20 to possible -40 at night. My GMC is inside at +70. I'm going to go play with the GMC for the next week. Stay warm my friends. Bob Dunahugh
Bob,
Memories from cold testing for AM General:
If his coolant is only good to +5, drain it now. It can take out the radiator core in a heart beat.
If it is good for -10, it will probably do no harm but that is just not a given. Even at that mix, it will turn to non-freezing slush that will take out the pump or the belt if it is started.
Do your neighbor a favor right now. If you can't find a drain cork (many newer vehicles are not so equipped), cut the lower hose.
This is actually a recommend emergency procedure. A hose is easier to replace than a radiator and an engine.
He is lucky to have a neighbor that cares.
It is 14° here right now and I just came in from clearing the back lot for our party tomorrow. I am still trying to warm up.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage at -25 when tested to +5? [message #327607 is a reply to message #327605] |
Sat, 30 December 2017 19:41 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Drain it NOW.
If you have access to the keys, close the drain and add pure 100% antifreeze ($10.00 a gallon at Walmart). Run the engine long enough to open the thermostat a few times.
If you do not have the keys, do as Matt said:
Drain it from underneath by using the radiator drain valve or by cutting the lower radiator hose. Replacing blown freeze plugs, radiators, or heater cores are not fun.
A later hose and a gallon or so of antifreeze is usually an easy job.
Why would anyone run an antifreeze mix at +5F in Iowa or anywhere?
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage at -25 when tested to +5? [message #327632 is a reply to message #327631] |
Sun, 31 December 2017 21:39 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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IIRC, the 50/50 ethylene glycol/distilled water ratio provides close to the eutectic point. That is the lowest temperature at which any alloy of metal or liquid mixture moves from liquid to solid state. I believe that is very close to -32 degrees F.
Daughter near Omaha said they are supposed to get near -24 tonight.
I don't know what is done where temps go to -32 and below.
Good reason to own an old "bug" or Corvair?
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot com
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Matt Colie
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 20:59
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage at -25 when tested to +5?
BobDunahugh wrote on Sun, 31 December 2017 12:19
> UPDATE. I went over first to check the level of protection. -10 was the protection level. Plugging in the block heater that had been installed
> years ago wasn't going to protect the heater core, or rad. So I cleared away the foot of snow so I could drained the radiator. Filled the rad with
> just antifreeze before starting. Then ran the engine up to operating temps. Thanks for the post. It's probable a little over the 50/50 mix as to
> antifreeze. If it is. What affect will that have? I always run 50/50 mix in everything. So I just never knew what happened below the protection
> level. Love this site with it's members. Bob Dunahugh
Bob,
When you next contact your neighbor, thank him for his service.
He is very lucky to have such a good friend and neighbor.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage at -25 when tested to +5? [message #327637 is a reply to message #327632] |
Sun, 31 December 2017 22:32 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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You might be confusing the definitions of eutetic point and freezing point. Not many people call it the eutetic point as it is commonly referred to as the freezing point.
Each mixture of ethylene glycol and water would have different points. A 50% /50% would have a -34 F freezing point and that would be the eutetic point of that mixture but a 60% ethylene glycol
Freezes at -49 F and a 70%
Freezes at around -60 F or so. It is difficult to measure the freezing point at 70% as it gets slushy.
So your estimate of -32F is close but only for the 50% mix. You can get a lower eutetic (freezing point) if you add more ethylene glycol up to about 70%. Over that and the freezing point goes up.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
> On Dec 31, 2017, at 8:39 PM, D C _Mac_ Macdonald wrote:
>
> IIRC, the 50/50 ethylene glycol/distilled water ratio provides close to the eutectic point. That is the lowest temperature at which any alloy of metal or liquid mixture moves from liquid to solid state. I believe that is very close to -32 degrees F.
>
> Daughter near Omaha said they are supposed to get near -24 tonight.
>
> I don't know what is done where temps go to -32 and below.
>
> Good reason to own an old "bug" or Corvair?
>
> D C "Mac" Macdonald
> Amateur Radio K2GKK
> Since 30 November '53
> USAF and FAA, Retired
> Member GMCMI & Classics
> Oklahoma City, OK
> "The Money Pit"
> TZE166V101966
> '76 ex-Palm Beach
> k2gkk + hotmail dot com
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Gmclist on behalf of Matt Colie
> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 20:59
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage at -25 when tested to +5?
>
> BobDunahugh wrote on Sun, 31 December 2017 12:19
>> UPDATE. I went over first to check the level of protection. -10 was the protection level. Plugging in the block heater that had been installed
>> years ago wasn't going to protect the heater core, or rad. So I cleared away the foot of snow so I could drained the radiator. Filled the rad with
>> just antifreeze before starting. Then ran the engine up to operating temps. Thanks for the post. It's probable a little over the 50/50 mix as to
>> antifreeze. If it is. What affect will that have? I always run 50/50 mix in everything. So I just never knew what happened below the protection
>> level. Love this site with it's members. Bob Dunahugh
>
> Bob,
>
> When you next contact your neighbor, thank him for his service.
>
> He is very lucky to have such a good friend and neighbor.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.gmcnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fgmclist_list.gmcnet.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C 33e9ac17fb3444102c4f08d550c3c0ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636503724032660663&sdata=u6N03GVBsPuClQr5CtehPJ4B3uwV6Hqk1AVEY5rYoI4 %3D&reserved=0
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage at -25 when tested to +5? [message #327694 is a reply to message #327637] |
Tue, 02 January 2018 22:54 |
Dave Stragand
Messages: 307
Registered: October 2017
Karma: 0
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Thanks to all for the reminder to check the antifreeze protection!
Our coach had been fairly well drained when we first bought it, and we had filled it at the time with a couple of gallons of distilled water and a couple of gallons of pure Prestone, but I remembered checking with the tester and seeing it wasn't optimal. Went back today to check and it tested to +10 degrees protection.
Now I'm not sure how accurate that tester is, as it had dipped to around 3 last night, and it was 9 when I tested today and it was still liquid with no signs of ice crystals.
It's supposed to warm up to a balmy 20 degrees tomorrow, so I plan to siphon a gallon of mix out of the radiator and replace with a gallon of pure Prestone, then run the engine for 10 minutes or so to stir it all up.
It's supposed to be -10 on Saturday, so better safe than sorry!
-Dave
1978 Transmode (403)
ICEburgh, PA
(formerly known as Pittsburgh)
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1978 Transmode (403)
Pittsburgh, PA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage at -25 when tested to +5? [message #327716 is a reply to message #327597] |
Wed, 03 January 2018 15:36 |
Dave Stragand
Messages: 307
Registered: October 2017
Karma: 0
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-2 last night.
For anyone who might be in a similar situation, I was able to complete
this task during my lunch hour without climbing underneath, and without
even getting dirty.
I bought a small handheld transfer pump for $14 at Advance Auto. I
carefully fed the top/suction side down into the radiator about 18-24",
and pumped out 2 gallons into some empty antifreeze jugs. I then
refilled it with about 1.75 gallons until it reached the top, and poured
the remainder into the overflow to be sucked in later after the air
worked its way back out. This pumping/refill process was only about 5
minutes total.
I started her up (with a little help from some starter fluid) and ran
the engine for about 15 minutes to thoroughly swoosh the new fluid
around.
Not sure what the protection level is now, as the cap was warm and I
didn't want to open it to check, but certainly better than the +10.
-Dave
1978 Transmode (403)
Pittsburgh, PA
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Dave
Stragand
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2018 11:55 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org; gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Can antifreeze/water freeze solid, and do damage
at -25 when tested to +5?
Thanks to all for the reminder to check the antifreeze protection!
Our coach had been fairly well drained when we first bought it, and we
had filled it at the time with a couple of gallons of distilled water
and a couple of gallons of pure Prestone, but I remembered checking with
the tester and seeing it wasn't optimal. Went back today to check and
it tested to +10 degrees protection.
Now I'm not sure how accurate that tester is, as it had dipped to around
3 last night, and it was 9 when I tested today and it was still liquid
with no signs of ice crystals.
It's supposed to warm up to a balmy 20 degrees tomorrow, so I plan to
siphon a gallon of mix out of the radiator and replace with a gallon of
pure Prestone, then run the engine for 10 minutes or so to stir it all
up.
It's supposed to be -10 on Saturday, so better safe than sorry!
-Dave
1978 Transmode (403)
ICEburgh, PA
(formerly known as Pittsburgh)
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1978 Transmode (403)
Pittsburgh, PA
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