| Re: [GMCnet] Isolater vs Alternator [message #326676 is a reply to message #326674] |
Sun, 03 December 2017 09:29   |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
Looking at the Catalog page, it appears that she no longer uses external
relays for any of her combiners. I don't see that as a problem.
Apparently no longer sells the C-135's either. I DO see there that she's
got refurbished (with FULL warranty) C-160's for $99. That's what I'd buy
('cause I'm CHEEP & don't see the down side with a full warranty).
Now I know why I bought several solenoid relays cheap from her some time
back -- probably because she was phasing them out of combiners.
Ken H.
On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 10:01 AM, Rob Mueller
wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I clicked on the C-160 and this link opened:
>
> http://www.yandina.com/c160Info.htm
>
> It doesn't say anything about a large external relay?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken
> Henderson
> Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2017 8:57 AM
> To: GMC Mail List
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Isolater vs Alternator
>
> Yes. IIRC, the C-160 uses a large external solenoid relay rather than the
> internal one in my C-135.
>
> Ken H.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Isolater vs Alternator [message #326678 is a reply to message #326676] |
Sun, 03 December 2017 09:54 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
Thanks, I just ordered one.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2017 9:30 AM
To: GMC Mail List
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Isolater vs Alternator
Rob,
Looking at the Catalog page, it appears that she no longer uses external
relays for any of her combiners. I don't see that as a problem.
Apparently no longer sells the C-135's either. I DO see there that she's
got refurbished (with FULL warranty) C-160's for $99. That's what I'd buy
('cause I'm CHEEP & don't see the down side with a full warranty).
Now I know why I bought several solenoid relays cheap from her some time
back -- probably because she was phasing them out of combiners.
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Isolater vs Alternator [message #326699 is a reply to message #326660] |
Sun, 03 December 2017 16:39 |
johnd01
Messages: 354
Registered: July 2017
Location: Sacrameot
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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Does a combiner tie both battery sets together when it starts to charge? If
so how do you avoid using the charged battery to charge the discharged
battery?
I would think the isolator even if you went to 400 amps would be a better
deal as long as you use a remote sense alternator. There is a 400 amp full
wave bride on eBay for less than $30 and the $150 amp is less than $10.
What am I missing about a combiner?
On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 7:28 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
> Wow. Doom and gloom on isolators.
>
> My OEM isolator and my 100 amp dual pulley alternator have co-existed for
> 13 years. I put a lot of load on them as I seldom plug in anywhere when I
> travel. So during the day my alternator and isolator have to recover the
> discharged golf cart batteries.
>
> I have been involved with the replacement of 3 combiners and 1 isolator on
> GMCs. None of which were on my coach. The isolator that broke was rusted
> so badly that I twisted off a stud trying to loosen the rusted nut. Had I
> left it alone and not tried to clean the connections it probably would
> still be running today. I have the bad isolator and someday I'll open it
> up to see if the stud can be replaced. It was and is still good
> electrically. That is more than I can say about the three bad combiners I
> worked on. Two of the bad combiners were on Dan's coach. He ended up
> carrying a spare in case it failed again.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
*John Phillips*
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Isolater vs Alternator [message #326700 is a reply to message #326699] |
Sun, 03 December 2017 16:53 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Addition of a combiner enables independent charging of both chassis (engine) AND house batteries from the AC power supply (so-called converter). Unlike the isolator, which uses diodes to prevent back charging and has an approximately .7 Volt drop, the combiner uses circuitry to sense which battery is being charged and will direct charging current from either vehicle alternator or shore powered "converter" to the battery with the lowest charge.
At least that is MY understanding of it!
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot com
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of John Phillips
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2017 16:39
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Isolater vs Alternator
Does a combiner tie both battery sets together when it starts to charge? If
so how do you avoid using the charged battery to charge the discharged
battery?
I would think the isolator even if you went to 400 amps would be a better
deal as long as you use a remote sense alternator. There is a 400 amp full
wave bride on eBay for less than $30 and the $150 amp is less than $10.
What am I missing about a combiner?
On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 7:28 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
> Wow. Doom and gloom on isolators.
>
> My OEM isolator and my 100 amp dual pulley alternator have co-existed for
> 13 years. I put a lot of load on them as I seldom plug in anywhere when I
> travel. So during the day my alternator and isolator have to recover the
> discharged golf cart batteries.
>
> I have been involved with the replacement of 3 combiners and 1 isolator on
> GMCs. None of which were on my coach. The isolator that broke was rusted
> so badly that I twisted off a stud trying to loosen the rusted nut. Had I
> left it alone and not tried to clean the connections it probably would
> still be running today. I have the bad isolator and someday I'll open it
> up to see if the stud can be replaced. It was and is still good
> electrically. That is more than I can say about the three bad combiners I
> worked on. Two of the bad combiners were on Dan's coach. He ended up
> carrying a spare in case it failed again.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.gmcnet.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fgmclist_list.gmcnet.org&data=02%7C01%7Ck2g kk%40hotmail.com%7C7fde65f2ecfb43ace87a08d53a9ed7a3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636479376248718027&sdata=b%2FAEfqcEflucEcgRzUb%2F EXs%2BwWXUdtQCbX4xuBzaIjk%3D&reserved=0
>
--
*John Phillips*
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| Re: [GMCnet] Isolater vs Alternator [message #326705 is a reply to message #326699] |
Sun, 03 December 2017 18:56 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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John,
Three things I like about combiners vs isolators:
1. The alternator sense line is always connected to the chassis battery.
2. The combiner is bidirectional so that if either the alternator or the
converter is producing adequate voltage, both batteries will be charged.
Without my having to remember to connect Ken B's $1 combiner (jumper wire).
3. If there is a combiner failure, since #1 above is true, it does not
result in the 28+ VDC I've seen on the house circuits several times after
combiner diodes opened.
Ken H.
On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 5:39 PM, John Phillips
wrote:
> Does a combiner tie both battery sets together when it starts to charge? If
> so how do you avoid using the charged battery to charge the discharged
> battery?
> I would think the isolator even if you went to 400 amps would be a better
> deal as long as you use a remote sense alternator. There is a 400 amp full
> wave bride on eBay for less than $30 and the $150 amp is less than $10.
> What am I missing about a combiner?
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Isolater vs Alternator [message #326707 is a reply to message #326699] |
Sun, 03 December 2017 19:22 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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It is my understanding that the Yandina combiner has a 30 second or so delay before combining (putting the batteries
in parallel). If the combined load is too high drawing the system voltage below the combine point (usually 13.2
or 13.3 volts) I "think" there is also a delay before uncombining. This was delay design was to prevent or reduce
chatter of off and on and off again repeatedly. It also allows the alternator to put an initial charge
into the single battery that was just used for starting and to reduce the rate of charge somewhat to it
before bringing a second battery online. It usually works OK but if the one coming online is discharged
enough or shorted you will still experience the cycling and brief drain described.
I do not know if this is true on other brands of combiners. Combiners are fine when they work as designed and
they have a few added features. They also introduce a few new modes of possible failure.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Isolater vs Alternator [message #326738 is a reply to message #326699] |
Mon, 04 December 2017 17:13 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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A combiner only combines when there is charging voltage present. Current
goes from higher voltage to lower voltage, so it always goes from the
charging source to the batteries, and not from one battery to the other.
The current will divide itself to be drawn more to the battery at a lower
charge state.
The problem of batteries killing each other happens when there is no
charging source active, and current flows from the higher battery to the
lower one. If the lower battery can't take a charge, both will end up dead.
But a combiner de-combines at voltages below charging voltage (13.1 volts).
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Denney_GMC_Electrical_Sys.pdf
Rick "fulfilling requirements automatically" Denney
On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 3:40 PM John Phillips
wrote:
> Does a combiner tie both battery sets together when it starts to charge? If
> so how do you avoid using the charged battery to charge the discharged
> battery?
> I would think the isolator even if you went to 400 amps would be a better
> deal as long as you use a remote sense alternator. There is a 400 amp full
> wave bride on eBay for less than $30 and the $150 amp is less than $10.
> What am I missing about a combiner?
>
>
> --
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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