Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter
[GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter [message #325068] |
Tue, 17 October 2017 19:36 |
glwgmc
Messages: 1014 Registered: June 2004
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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All good points and I am well versed in the arithmetic involved with batteries and inverters. This Prevost, like many current high end coaches, is an all electric coach with 1850 ah of AGM batteries. All the appliances are residential devices. There is no propane on board although I do carry a small bottle to power the propane fire pit and the BBQ.
The appeal of induction cooktops, and why they are common on new coaches, is they heat food very quickly while imparting far less heat into the interior of the coach so it stays cool unlike cooking with propane or resistance. Those same traits are why they are so popular in other countries around the world and are becoming more common in residential applications here as well.
The fast cooking means the inverter, while drawing substantial power, only does do for a short period of time - a few minutes for most applications. Very much the same arithmetic as powering a microwave from an inverter which
many motorhomer's do from far smaller battery
banks.
Yes, turning on the 17500 watt generator is an option, and what I would do for extended cooking applications, but I also want to explore the inverter option for quick use. Hence looking for anyone who has experience doing so.
Thanks for the input.
Jerry Work
Kerby, OR
.......
rom: Jim Miller
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On Oct 17, 2017, at 7:02 PM, John Yurtinus wrote:
> This is one thing I never quite got. What's the allure of an induction cooktop in an RV? I don't see any advantage over propane and a whole lot of drawbacks.
Hi John,
I am usually a lurker on GMCnet and only pipe up occasionally. I, too, am interested in the reasoning behind using any electrical cooking method in a GMC be it inductive or resistive - but even more so I was wondering why one would even consider running it from an inverter.
Like solar panels and wind turbines, these inverters seem to have some magical Star Wars light-saber allure and end up getting used for all the wrong reasons. Unfortunately the EE concepts of P=IE and P=I^2R (re conductor loss) are usually ignored on the inverter setups and result in installations that are either marginal in performance or are outright dangerous.
I guess if one has an unlimited supply of DC then drawing 12V @ 200 amps for a half hour while cooking dinner is OK..but why not just use propane? Or, if you really must have electrical cooking - start the genset for a bit?
Sign me ?baffled?...
?Jim
Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
......:
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Jerry & Sharon Work
78 Royale
Kerby, OR
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Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter [message #325070 is a reply to message #325068] |
Tue, 17 October 2017 20:06 |
G?Rs66
Messages: 56 Registered: May 2016 Location: Wautoma, Wi.
Karma: 1
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Hi Jerry I am an ex truck driver and have used inverters of every size to
power my 110v stuff I went to 110 after going through loads of 12v things
got tired of burning up coffee pots the inverter opened up a whole new
world with me living on the road when my wife and me saw the advertisement
for the NU WAVE induction cook top I thought this would work great so we
got the deal for two of them when we got them we tried it at home and it
works like a dream but when I put the other one on the truck it would not
work so I got a bigger inverter still nothing I then got the other one from
home and tried it still nothing so I called the company and asked them
about it and was told that because of the way they are made that they will
not work with inverters the nu wave is only1300 watts and I was pushing it
with 2500 and 3000 watt inverters so it must be something with the circuitry
Virus-free.
www.avg.com
On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 7:36 PM, Gerald Work wrote:
> All good points and I am well versed in the arithmetic involved with
> batteries and inverters. This Prevost, like many current high end coaches,
> is an all electric coach with 1850 ah of AGM batteries. All the appliances
> are residential devices. There is no propane on board although I do carry a
> small bottle to power the propane fire pit and the BBQ.
>
> The appeal of induction cooktops, and why they are common on new coaches,
> is they heat food very quickly while imparting far less heat into the
> interior of the coach so it stays cool unlike cooking with propane or
> resistance. Those same traits are why they are so popular in other
> countries around the world and are becoming more common in residential
> applications here as well.
>
> The fast cooking means the inverter, while drawing substantial power, only
> does do for a short period of time - a few minutes for most applications.
> Very much the same arithmetic as powering a microwave from an inverter which
> many motorhomer's do from far smaller battery
> banks.
>
> Yes, turning on the 17500 watt generator is an option, and what I would do
> for extended cooking applications, but I also want to explore the inverter
> option for quick use. Hence looking for anyone who has experience doing so.
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> Jerry Work
> Kerby, OR
> .......
> rom: Jim Miller
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> On Oct 17, 2017, at 7:02 PM, John Yurtinus wrote:
>
>> This is one thing I never quite got. What's the allure of an induction
> cooktop in an RV? I don't see any advantage over propane and a whole lot of
> drawbacks.
>
> Hi John,
>
> I am usually a lurker on GMCnet and only pipe up occasionally. I, too, am
> interested in the reasoning behind using any electrical cooking method in a
> GMC be it inductive or resistive - but even more so I was wondering why one
> would even consider running it from an inverter.
>
> Like solar panels and wind turbines, these inverters seem to have some
> magical Star Wars light-saber allure and end up getting used for all the
> wrong reasons. Unfortunately the EE concepts of P=IE and P=I^2R (re
> conductor loss) are usually ignored on the inverter setups and result in
> installations that are either marginal in performance or are outright
> dangerous.
>
> I guess if one has an unlimited supply of DC then drawing 12V @ 200 amps
> for a half hour while cooking dinner is OK..but why not just use propane?
> Or, if you really must have electrical cooking - start the genset for a bit?
>
> Sign me ?baffled?...
> ?Jim
>
> Jim Miller
> 1977 Eleganza
> 1977 Royale
> Hamilton, OH
> ......:
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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1978 Transmode
1966 GTO{frame off restor}
Wautoma, Wi (About 35 miles west of Oshkosh, Wi)
Gene Don't Do Facebook
but Ronny does
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Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter [message #325074 is a reply to message #325068] |
Tue, 17 October 2017 20:21 |
Jared
Messages: 1 Registered: October 2017
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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Hey Jerry,
Just wanted to drop in and give a big thank you to you and your wife for being such gracious hosts while we conducted our business. I ended up taking the coach up through the Olympic Peninsula, then headed east through Washington all the way to Montana before heading back south to Nevada. It never let me down, and I had a great first trip roving around the west.
I’ll be taking it east on my next trip, probably to one of my favorite areas (The Great Smoky Mountains of Tenn and the western mountains of NC). From there who knows, may even spend some time down south in FL.
I hope your trip to Europe went well, and that you and your wife are both living it up.
Hello to all veteran and new GMC’rs. I constantly lurk the email chain in hopes of picking up a bit of knowledge, as right now calling myself a rookie might be more credit than I deserve. It makes for interesting reading regardless.
Jared Freeman
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Gerald Work
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 5:37 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter
All good points and I am well versed in the arithmetic involved with batteries and inverters. This Prevost, like many current high end coaches, is an all electric coach with 1850 ah of AGM batteries. All the appliances are residential devices. There is no propane on board although I do carry a small bottle to power the propane fire pit and the BBQ.
The appeal of induction cooktops, and why they are common on new coaches, is they heat food very quickly while imparting far less heat into the interior of the coach so it stays cool unlike cooking with propane or resistance. Those same traits are why they are so popular in other countries around the world and are becoming more common in residential applications here as well.
The fast cooking means the inverter, while drawing substantial power, only does do for a short period of time - a few minutes for most applications. Very much the same arithmetic as powering a microwave from an inverter which
many motorhomer's do from far smaller battery
banks.
Yes, turning on the 17500 watt generator is an option, and what I would do for extended cooking applications, but I also want to explore the inverter option for quick use. Hence looking for anyone who has experience doing so.
Thanks for the input.
Jerry Work
Kerby, OR
.......
rom: Jim Miller
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On Oct 17, 2017, at 7:02 PM, John Yurtinus wrote:
> This is one thing I never quite got. What's the allure of an induction cooktop in an RV? I don't see any advantage over propane and a whole lot of drawbacks.
Hi John,
I am usually a lurker on GMCnet and only pipe up occasionally. I, too, am interested in the reasoning behind using any electrical cooking method in a GMC be it inductive or resistive - but even more so I was wondering why one would even consider running it from an inverter.
Like solar panels and wind turbines, these inverters seem to have some magical Star Wars light-saber allure and end up getting used for all the wrong reasons. Unfortunately the EE concepts of P=IE and P=I^2R (re conductor loss) are usually ignored on the inverter setups and result in installations that are either marginal in performance or are outright dangerous.
I guess if one has an unlimited supply of DC then drawing 12V @ 200 amps for a half hour while cooking dinner is OK..but why not just use propane? Or, if you really must have electrical cooking - start the genset for a bit?
Sign me ?baffled?...
?Jim
Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
......:
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Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter [message #325077 is a reply to message #325070] |
Tue, 17 October 2017 21:05 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920 Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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It's the waveform put out by most inverters that causes the problem. An
induction cooktop induces electrical currents in the metal of the pan, and
the electromagnetic field it creates to do that requires a clean sine wave,
so that currents and voltages are constantly and smoothly changing rather
than jumping in steps. It should work with a true sine-wave inverter. That
would let out my generator, which uses a dedicated inverter that is
probably not a sufficiently pure sine wave.
Rick "sticking with propane" Denney
On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 7:07 PM GENE KNUEPPEL wrote:
> Hi Jerry I am an ex truck driver and have used inverters of every size to
> power my 110v stuff I went to 110 after going through loads of 12v things
> got tired of burning up coffee pots the inverter opened up a whole new
> world with me living on the road when my wife and me saw the advertisement
> for the NU WAVE induction cook top I thought this would work great so we
> got the deal for two of them when we got them we tried it at home and it
> works like a dream but when I put the other one on the truck it would not
> work so I got a bigger inverter still nothing I then got the other one from
> home and tried it still nothing so I called the company and asked them
> about it and was told that because of the way they are made that they will
> not work with inverters the nu wave is only1300 watts and I was pushing it
> with 2500 and 3000 watt inverters so it must be something with the
> circuitry
>
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>>
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
>>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 7:36 PM, Gerald Work wrote:
>
>> All good points and I am well versed in the arithmetic involved with
>> batteries and inverters. This Prevost, like many current high end
> coaches,
>> is an all electric coach with 1850 ah of AGM batteries. All the
> appliances
>> are residential devices. There is no propane on board although I do
> carry a
>> small bottle to power the propane fire pit and the BBQ.
>>
>> The appeal of induction cooktops, and why they are common on new coaches,
>> is they heat food very quickly while imparting far less heat into the
>> interior of the coach so it stays cool unlike cooking with propane or
>> resistance. Those same traits are why they are so popular in other
>> countries around the world and are becoming more common in residential
>> applications here as well.
>>
>> The fast cooking means the inverter, while drawing substantial power,
> only
>> does do for a short period of time - a few minutes for most applications.
>> Very much the same arithmetic as powering a microwave from an inverter
> which
>> many motorhomer's do from far smaller battery
>> banks.
>>
>> Yes, turning on the 17500 watt generator is an option, and what I would
> do
>> for extended cooking applications, but I also want to explore the
> inverter
>> option for quick use. Hence looking for anyone who has experience doing
> so.
>>
>> Thanks for the input.
>>
>> Jerry Work
>> Kerby, OR
>> .......
>> rom: Jim Miller
>> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter
>> Message-ID:
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 7:02 PM, John Yurtinus wrote:
>>
>>> This is one thing I never quite got. What's the allure of an induction
>> cooktop in an RV? I don't see any advantage over propane and a whole lot
> of
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> I am usually a lurker on GMCnet and only pipe up occasionally. I, too, am
>> interested in the reasoning behind using any electrical cooking method
> in a
>> GMC be it inductive or resistive - but even more so I was wondering why
> one
>> would even consider running it from an inverter.
>>
>> Like solar panels and wind turbines, these inverters seem to have some
>> magical Star Wars light-saber allure and end up getting used for all the
>> wrong reasons. Unfortunately the EE concepts of P=IE and P=I^2R (re
>> conductor loss) are usually ignored on the inverter setups and result in
>> installations that are either marginal in performance or are outright
>> dangerous.
>>
>> I guess if one has an unlimited supply of DC then drawing 12V @ 200 amps
>> for a half hour while cooking dinner is OK..but why not just use propane?
>> Or, if you really must have electrical cooking - start the genset for a
> bit?
>>
>> Sign me ?baffled?...
>> ?Jim
>>
>> Jim Miller
>> 1977 Eleganza
>> 1977 Royale
>> Hamilton, OH
>> ......:
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter [message #325096 is a reply to message #325070] |
Wed, 18 October 2017 08:46 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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G?Rs66 wrote on Tue, 17 October 2017 21:06Hi Jerry I am an ex truck driver and have used inverters of every size to power my 110v stuff I went to 110 after going through loads of 12v things got tired of burning up coffee pots the inverter opened up a whole new world with me living on the road when my wife and me saw the advertisement for the NU WAVE induction cook top I thought this would work great so we got the deal for two of them when we got them we tried it at home and it works like a dream but when I put the other one on the truck it would not work so I got a bigger inverter still nothing I then got the other one from home and tried it still nothing so I called the company and asked them about it and was told that because of the way they are made that they will not work with inverters the nu wave is only 1300 watts and I was pushing it with 2500 and 3000 watt inverters so it must be something with the circuitry.
An apology before the start. The below has a lot of things that non-E-freindly people may not get. The problem is that I don't know other ways to describe some things. If you can form a specific question in normal English, I will do my best to answer it, but that may take so doing.
Until the depression shut us down, I earned a lot of money converting racing sloops to performance cruisers. This involved mainly three things, comfortable living spaces, workable house electrics and civilized plumbing. These are all things that are absent on race ready boats. The comfortable living spaces was largely plywood cut to shape, tabbed in and then a final assembly with screws into cleats, the civilized plumbing was always to include H&C pressure water in both the galley and the head. Adding a shower was difficult and expensive as zero discharge made things tough. The house electrics was always a big thing because owner never envisioned the complications.
The occasion of running microwaves and a few other things from an inverter was always an issue such that I began to refuse to write a quote to do it. Anything that used the juice for direct heat or to run a real motor was never any problem, but anything else was an open issue. The real unexpected gotchya was a color laser printer that the owner needed for business. That would sort of work, but it would periodically go crazy. There was no indication of why except that it was flawless on shore power. Nothing could tell me what the problem was. Then I put it on a split (that allowed me access to the individual conductors) and watched the current with a Bell probe. These are an analog device with effectively high frequency response. When watching the current with my 87, the flying spot would periodically jump. The numeric display would maybe shuffle a last digit. So, I borrowed a little digital O-scope and looked again. At first it looked good, then it looked like nothing and then it was ragged again as the digital signal aliased in and out of sync with the scope. Then (from the same tech collector), I borrowed a an old glass Tecktonics. Completely Analog. It showed me that the power consumption of the printer was all over the place when it tried to run from the inverter because the two were close to the same switching frequency. I have forgotten the actual model but the inverter was supposed to be a pure sine. Needless to say, it really was not it was just better than the modified square wave versions. The glass scope confirmed that. It looked pretty good until one expanded the wave form. It was only a close approximation to a sine with big steps at both ends where it zero switched.
Do I have an answer?
Sorry, I don't. I never saw the issue with the old Heart inverters that had an iron core transformer and a 1.5KVA was most 50# or a rotating machine that runs a synchronous speed. So I would guess that those are your choices if you want fancy electronics to work reliably.
Matt - Almost glad that he was put out of business
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter [message #325100 is a reply to message #325068] |
Wed, 18 October 2017 09:06 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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You can buy an inverter which does in fact produce a good sine wave. Actually, if you look at the Onan waveform, it gets up around 5 - 10% distortion when it's heavily loaded. Be sitting down when you see what such an inverter is going to cost you. If it's producing a true sine wave, not something assembled fro a bunch of steps, it doesn't matter what speed the power supply switches. The estimate price of Peer's propane conversion to German spec might buy one.
I have an old UPS which came out of a transmitter plane when we upgraded to run the whole place sans utility power. This thing kept some of the computers alive until the genset took load and restarted the transmitters. I put a 35KVA 3 phase UPS in place with about 6 - 7 minutes of batteries which was more than enough to start the genset. It actually made a better waveform that Ga Power at the location. I run the little one off the house batteries if I need 5 minutes of A/C for something. One outlet, suitable for my soldering gun or iron or the like.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter [message #325107 is a reply to message #325100] |
Wed, 18 October 2017 11:33 |
johnd01
Messages: 354 Registered: July 2017 Location: Sacrameot
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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I wonder if an isolation transformer in 2 in series would kill the
high-frequency component filling in the gaps of the switching inverter. The
key would be to have energy stored in the iron core.
On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 7:06 AM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> You can buy an inverter which does in fact produce a good sine wave.
> Actually, if you look at the Onan waveform, it gets up around 5 - 10%
> distortion
> when it's heavily loaded. Be sitting down when you see what such an
> inverter is going to cost you. If it's producing a true sine wave, not
> something
> assembled fro a bunch of steps, it doesn't matter what speed the power
> supply switches. The estimate price of Peer's propane conversion to German
> spec might buy one.
> I have an old UPS which came out of a transmitter plane when we upgraded
> to run the whole place sans utility power. This thing kept some of the
> computers alive until the genset took load and restarted the
> transmitters. I put a 35KVA 3 phase UPS in place with about 6 - 7 minutes
> of batteries
> which was more than enough to start the genset. It actually made a better
> waveform that Ga Power at the location. I run the little one off the house
> batteries if I need 5 minutes of A/C for something. One outlet, suitable
> for my soldering gun or iron or the like.
>
> --johnny
> --
> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
*John Phillips*
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter [message #325111 is a reply to message #325107] |
Wed, 18 October 2017 12:00 |
johnd01
Messages: 354 Registered: July 2017 Location: Sacrameot
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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A good line conditioner should be able to convert a modified sine inverter
to a good pure sine inverter.
After thinking about it I would try a unit like
https://www.zoro.com/tripp-lite-power-conditioner-small-tower-18kva-lc-1800/i/G2208823/#tech-specs
and see how it works before I invested in inverter shopping looking for
just the one that works.
On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:33 AM, John Phillips
wrote:
> I wonder if an isolation transformer in 2 in series would kill the
> high-frequency component filling in the gaps of the switching inverter. The
> key would be to have energy stored in the iron core.
>
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 7:06 AM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> You can buy an inverter which does in fact produce a good sine wave.
>> Actually, if you look at the Onan waveform, it gets up around 5 - 10%
>> distortion
>> when it's heavily loaded. Be sitting down when you see what such an
>> inverter is going to cost you. If it's producing a true sine wave, not
>> something
>> assembled fro a bunch of steps, it doesn't matter what speed the power
>> supply switches. The estimate price of Peer's propane conversion to German
>> spec might buy one.
>> I have an old UPS which came out of a transmitter plane when we upgraded
>> to run the whole place sans utility power. This thing kept some of the
>> computers alive until the genset took load and restarted the
>> transmitters. I put a 35KVA 3 phase UPS in place with about 6 - 7 minutes
>> of batteries
>> which was more than enough to start the genset. It actually made a
>> better waveform that Ga Power at the location. I run the little one off
>> the house
>> batteries if I need 5 minutes of A/C for something. One outlet, suitable
>> for my soldering gun or iron or the like.
>>
>> --johnny
>> --
>> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>> Braselton, Ga.
>> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to
>> me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Phillips*
>
--
*John Phillips*
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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Re: [GMCnet] Induction cooktop run off an inverter [message #325129 is a reply to message #325127] |
Wed, 18 October 2017 15:44 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411 Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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I wasn't even dreaming of using both A/C and cooktop at the same time from any inverter I could afford. I could connect 2 of those units and probably run a good A/C unit with some lighter duty components than the 44 year old unit up there now, which cools great but takes too much current to start the compressor. I really need a new roof A/C unit that would start and run on the small and quiet inverter generator. Then of course have to get one with electric start...didn't see a good way to take the 3500 from HF apart.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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