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| [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323888] |
Thu, 14 September 2017 22:46  |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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So, my coach is back together. But there have been issues.
1. The ride height was an inch or a bit more low all around before I
started. Weight was well balanced. But the front ride height has been a
bear. The left side required the adjuster to be nearly all the way in, and
on the right side the adjuster bolt is nearly all the way out. The left
side is at 13-1/16" to the top of the slot, and the right side is at
13-3/8". When I try to lower the right side, the left side goes down, too,
and I can get the right side an inch low by making the left side 1-3/8"
low. That's probably how it was.
The torsion bars are on the correct sides, so I don't know what's
happening. I'll have to see how it does when I bounce it around on a test
drive and measure it again.
2. I replaced the rear linkages with adjustable linkages that I set to be
the same length going in. Lengthening them should raise the ride height,
but even at full length I can't get the right side to settle higher in
Travel. The ride height on that side wants to be two inches low. But when I
jack it up to proper ride height, it seems awfully high. I will focus on
that tomorrow. I was hurrying too much to let the leveling valves do their
thing.
3. When I set up the strings to measure front toe, I looked at the right
side bogies. Let's just say the wear pattern I saw on the middle right tire
has an explanation. That will be next year's project.
4. A quick camber measurement after setting the toe and ride height showed
about 3/4 degree of positive camber. Lots more work to do there, but it
needs a settling drive before really knowing what it needs. I want to look
at caster before deciding what to do with camber. I'm probably going to
have to set the toe again (grrrrrr!).
I think it will take the whole day to deal with all of that. Just too much
to get out of here in time to make Elkhart.
Rick "who can't be meticulous when in a hurry" Denney
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323891 is a reply to message #323888] |
Thu, 14 September 2017 23:04  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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RIck,
Just one comment for now:
#3. "strings ... toe" makes me think I didn't explain the use of the wheel
jigs and laser level. What I do is lock the steering wheel straight
ahead. Now use the laser horizontal on the capital of the inverted T.
Then position a target (I use a rectangle of white "duct board", cardboard
would do) positioned against the frame just before it steps down to front
clip. Mark where the beam hits. Now move as far as possible to the rear
of the side frame rail as possible and note where the beam strikes. Adjust
that front wheel toe to bring the beam to the mark made at the front.
Iterating that process 2-3 times should reduce the toe of that wheel to
nearly zero. Repeat on the other side for zero overall toe.
I'm generally content with that, but if not, I clamp a 1" x 60" aluminum
tube to each of the jigs' horizontal bars (there are holes there) and
measure between the ends of those bars with a tape measure, being very
careful not to disturb the bars. The toe is 1/2 the measured difference
between the pairs of ends. Remember to adjust each tie rod end equally
when setting a little toe-out.
I only use string and stand-off pedestals to check rear wheel toe.
Hopefully some of those other issues will improve themselves when you've
seated in all those new components.
HTH,
Ken
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:46 PM, Richard Denney wrote:
> So, my coach is back together. But there have been issues.
>
> 1. The ride height was an inch or a bit more low all around before I
> started. Weight was well balanced. But the front ride height has been a
> bear. The left side required the adjuster to be nearly all the way in, and
> on the right side the adjuster bolt is nearly all the way out. The left
> side is at 13-1/16" to the top of the slot, and the right side is at
> 13-3/8". When I try to lower the right side, the left side goes down, too,
> and I can get the right side an inch low by making the left side 1-3/8"
> low. That's probably how it was.
>
> The torsion bars are on the correct sides, so I don't know what's
> happening. I'll have to see how it does when I bounce it around on a test
> drive and measure it again.
>
> 2. I replaced the rear linkages with adjustable linkages that I set to be
> the same length going in. Lengthening them should raise the ride height,
> but even at full length I can't get the right side to settle higher in
> Travel. The ride height on that side wants to be two inches low. But when I
> jack it up to proper ride height, it seems awfully high. I will focus on
> that tomorrow. I was hurrying too much to let the leveling valves do their
> thing.
>
> 3. When I set up the strings to measure front toe, I looked at the right
> side bogies. Let's just say the wear pattern I saw on the middle right tire
> has an explanation. That will be next year's project.
>
> 4. A quick camber measurement after setting the toe and ride height showed
> about 3/4 degree of positive camber. Lots more work to do there, but it
> needs a settling drive before really knowing what it needs. I want to look
> at caster before deciding what to do with camber. I'm probably going to
> have to set the toe again (grrrrrr!).
>
> I think it will take the whole day to deal with all of that. Just too much
> to get out of here in time to make Elkhart.
>
> Rick "who can't be meticulous when in a hurry" Denney
>
>
> --
> Rick Denney
> 73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
> Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323892 is a reply to message #323891] |
Thu, 14 September 2017 23:40 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Now you tell me. :) I'll do it that way when I have to readjust after
setting camber and caster.
By the way, the jigs work fine on the Eagle wheels, except the cross-bars
interfere with the dust caps (which are bolted under the lug nuts and not
eastto remove). I took them off and used lightly stretched bungies to
secure the jigs to the wheels.
Rick "noting much added precision, too" Denney
On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:05 AM Ken Henderson
wrote:
> RIck,
>
> Just one comment for now:
>
> #3. "strings ... toe" makes me think I didn't explain the use of the wheel
> jigs and laser level. What I do is lock the steering wheel straight
> ahead. Now use the laser horizontal on the capital of the inverted T.
> Then position a target (I use a rectangle of white "duct board", cardboard
> would do) positioned against the frame just before it steps down to front
> clip. Mark where the beam hits. Now move as far as possible to the rear
> of the side frame rail as possible and note where the beam strikes. Adjust
> that front wheel toe to bring the beam to the mark made at the front.
>
> Iterating that process 2-3 times should reduce the toe of that wheel to
> nearly zero. Repeat on the other side for zero overall toe.
>
> I'm generally content with that, but if not, I clamp a 1" x 60" aluminum
> tube to each of the jigs' horizontal bars (there are holes there) and
> measure between the ends of those bars with a tape measure, being very
> careful not to disturb the bars. The toe is 1/2 the measured difference
> between the pairs of ends. Remember to adjust each tie rod end equally
> when setting a little toe-out.
>
> I only use string and stand-off pedestals to check rear wheel toe.
>
> Hopefully some of those other issues will improve themselves when you've
> seated in all those new components.
>
> HTH,
>
> Ken
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:46 PM, Richard Denney
> wrote:
>
>> So, my coach is back together. But there have been issues.
>>
>> 1. The ride height was an inch or a bit more low all around before I
>> started. Weight was well balanced. But the front ride height has been a
>> bear. The left side required the adjuster to be nearly all the way in,
> and
>> on the right side the adjuster bolt is nearly all the way out. The left
>> side is at 13-1/16" to the top of the slot, and the right side is at
>> 13-3/8". When I try to lower the right side, the left side goes down,
> too,
>> and I can get the right side an inch low by making the left side 1-3/8"
>> low. That's probably how it was.
>>
>> The torsion bars are on the correct sides, so I don't know what's
>> happening. I'll have to see how it does when I bounce it around on a test
>> drive and measure it again.
>>
>> 2. I replaced the rear linkages with adjustable linkages that I set to be
>> the same length going in. Lengthening them should raise the ride height,
>> but even at full length I can't get the right side to settle higher in
>> Travel. The ride height on that side wants to be two inches low. But
> when I
>> jack it up to proper ride height, it seems awfully high. I will focus on
>> that tomorrow. I was hurrying too much to let the leveling valves do
> their
>> thing.
>>
>> 3. When I set up the strings to measure front toe, I looked at the right
>> side bogies. Let's just say the wear pattern I saw on the middle right
> tire
>> has an explanation. That will be next year's project.
>>
>> 4. A quick camber measurement after setting the toe and ride height
> showed
>> about 3/4 degree of positive camber. Lots more work to do there, but it
>> needs a settling drive before really knowing what it needs. I want to
> look
>> at caster before deciding what to do with camber. I'm probably going to
>> have to set the toe again (grrrrrr!).
>>
>> I think it will take the whole day to deal with all of that. Just too
> much
>> to get out of here in time to make Elkhart.
>>
>> Rick "who can't be meticulous when in a hurry" Denney
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rick Denney
>> 73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
>> Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323896 is a reply to message #323894] |
Fri, 15 September 2017 07:29 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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That's what I ended up doing, but I have to say I think it's not the best
idea. It seems to me the rear needs to rotate (NOT with automatic leveling,
of course) to avoid put a twist in the frame. For the same reason, we
adjust the rear with the front able to rotate. But perhaps doing one or the
other eliminates the front-rear conflict.
The manual says to adjust the front with the rear in travel, but that seems
to me a recipe for chasing one's tail.
Rick "not sure how to relieve an imbalance without scales" Denney
On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 7:07 AM Bruce Hislop wrote:
> Richard,
> Before adjusting the front ride height, set the rear bogies on blocks so
> they are close to the correct rear ride height. This removes any rear
> suspension imbalances. Then adjust your front heights. After you get the
> front correct, then remove the rear blocking and adjust the rears.
>
> JWID
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop
> ON Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
> Hubler 1 ton front end
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323898 is a reply to message #323888] |
Fri, 15 September 2017 08:24 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Not sure on the front imbal unless the rear is messing with you. On my 84 Riv E body the torsion bars are way off like yours to get level and the rear air on those is T'ed. So my guess is bar fatigue. On the upper arms- the way Dave Lenzi explained-- basicly you turn the rear cam so the arm is inboard as much as possible, then adjust the front to keep camber from going negative. Half way or so on mine. Then one side will be the limiting factor so you have to back the other off to it. Then set toe. I got about 4 deg but I'm a 77.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323909 is a reply to message #323898] |
Fri, 15 September 2017 17:39 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Blocking the rear at the frame didn't make sense to me because it doesn't allow any movement. What I did when I set ride height was to remove the front wheels, with a jack in the center of the front cross member,, then lower the front end to approximately the proper front ride height. Then I set the rear ride height with the valves in Travel. I then put the front wheels back on and set the front ride height with the front wheels on the ground. I then 'settled' the front end by driving over a couple of 2 X 4s (I know that's probably not sufficient) , and re-checked it.
I managed to get the adjustment bolts pretty even by doing it this way, and went to the GMCMI in Pueblo a couple of weeks later, where I had the coach weighed. All six wheels were within less than 200 pounds of each other.
I need to re-check it, and if it needs adjustment, I will do it the same way.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323912 is a reply to message #323909] |
Fri, 15 September 2017 20:03 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Set the rear ride height correctly first. Then, block the bogies at that
height. Then, check the front ride height. If it is off side to side, find
out why. Check the coaches weight side to side. Try to get it within 150
pounds or so. ( 1 person weight). Then, check your pork chop adjusting
screws. If they are not about the same, you have a problem with torsion
bars. Goes without saying, your tire sizes and inflation pressures should
be the same side to side. Long adjusting bolts are available, as are offset
pork chops, as well as new, stronger torsion bars. Be patient. Drive your
coach several miles before checking after adjustment.
Jim Hupy
On Sep 15, 2017 4:02 PM, "Carl Stouffer" wrote:
> Blocking the rear at the frame didn't make sense to me because it doesn't
> allow any movement. What I did when I set ride height was to remove the
> front wheels, with a jack in the center of the front cross member,, then
> lower the front end to approximately the proper front ride height. Then I
> set the rear ride height with the valves in Travel. I then put the front
> wheels back on and set the front ride height with the front wheels on the
> ground. I then 'settled' the front end by driving over a couple of 2 X 4s
> (I know that's probably not sufficient) , and re-checked it.
>
> I managed to get the adjustment bolts pretty even by doing it this way,
> and went to the GMCMI in Pueblo a couple of weeks later, where I had the
> coach
> weighed. All six wheels were within less than 200 pounds of each other.
>
> I need to re-check it, and if it needs adjustment, I will do it the same
> way.
> --
> Carl Stouffer
> '75 ex Palm Beach
> Tucson, AZ.
> Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive,
> Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American
> Eagles,
> Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323913 is a reply to message #323892] |
Fri, 15 September 2017 20:13 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Today, I adjusted the leveling-valve rods at their longest length, and the
arm at the extreme of the slot to make the rear higher. Then, I put it in
Raise and ran it up to maximum ride height, and then put it back in Travel.
The coach settled, but it was too high. I then screwed the adjustable links
to shorter lengths, which bled air out and lowered the coach. When I got
them down to about the correct height, I went for a drive. The steering was
off center a bit, but the coach drove pretty well.
When I rolled it back into the shop after a three-mile loop, the front end
had settled to two inches low on front left, two inches high at back right,
an inch low at front right, and an inch high at back right. Both wheels
were turned slightly right, exposing the flaw of last night's method. I
locked the steering wheel down with a 2x2 and two big wire ties, pulled
tight and the other end wedged into the pocket of the side panel.
I raised the front left to the limit of the adjuster, and raised the front
right a little. I picked up the front and put the wheels on greased
placemats. I installed the alignment jigs and touched up the camber--not
much needed there. Caster was the same on both sides (yes!). Then, using
Ken's laser technique, I re-aimed each wheel to point straight with zero
toe.
But I forgot to readjust the rear ride height.
Went for another test drive, and filled up--the pump shut off with the main
tank full and the Aux tank at half--25 gallons in addition to the 12 I'd
already put in in cans, plus the 10 or so still in the tanks when I dropped
them. Full is 54 gallons (I have Cinnabar tanks), so the aux gauge is
reading low.
Back in the hangar, the left front ride height was again almost 2" low and
the right rear 2" high. I *finally* lowered the right rear to the correct
height, which raised the front left (funny, that). The fronts are equal at
an inch low, and that's as high as I can get them. I think I need a new
left torsion bar at some point--the adjuster is all the way in.
With the added caster of the offset bushing, I think I can live with the
front being low.
The coach drives perfectly--no pull or drift. The steering wheel is
centered, which means the gear box is still centered. The coach was rock
stable on the interstate at 70 mph, and was dead easy to drive on narrow,
bumpy country roads.
I'm going to have to get used to the more aggressive stance of the front
wheels.
Tomorrow, I'm going over everything again. I already made one big
mistake--I was driving around having not yet tightened the front right
shock bolts. I want to double-check the torque on the upper control arm
adjuster, and generally check myself.
And then I have a big mess to clean up.
Rick "nearing completion, about three days too late" Denney
On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:40 AM Richard Denney wrote:
> Now you tell me. :) I'll do it that way when I have to readjust after
> setting camber and caster.
>
> By the way, the jigs work fine on the Eagle wheels, except the cross-bars
> interfere with the dust caps (which are bolted under the lug nuts and not
> eastto remove). I took them off and used lightly stretched bungies to
> secure the jigs to the wheels.
>
> Rick "noting much added precision, too" Denney
>
> --
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323916 is a reply to message #323913] |
Fri, 15 September 2017 21:32 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Hi Rick.... funny things happen when you have dueling torsion bars. Especially when one is in and one is out. When you jack one side it tries to take the other side with it and pushing down on opposite corner. I might try backing off on the one to much in and bring the other to ~ the same threads and check. When raising or lowering it should always be done together and the bolts close to Being the same. Sometimes you just gotta put it where you think it should be ideally and start over. Putting it on scales would tell the tale, if the fronts weigh the same it will be level then you can raise or lower equally the same amount of turns. Ken brought his scales, 3 pm next Tuesday, you got time to get here.. Kim says 194 coaches are here. They are everywhere..
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323919 is a reply to message #323916] |
Fri, 15 September 2017 22:31 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Chuck,
I was concerned about these bars from the start. When I first installed the
adjusters, when the front end parts were installed but the coach was still
on jack stands, I had to crank monstrously on the unloader on the right
side to get the adjuster installed to the spot on my "story stick", which I
had made from the left adjuster.
Then, I tried jacking up the A-arms. The right side was so tight the jack
lifted the coach off the jack stand almost before the A-arm moved. The left
side would wind up the bar until the A-arm was beyond level before lifting
the coach. This was with the back on jack stands. I thought the right side
was too tight, and even pulled the crossmember on that side to pull the
torsion bar to check it. It was straight. Turns out, the left side is the
saggy one.
The longer leverage of the spaced-out one-ton kit should require the
adjusters to be screwed in tighter, and the coach was an inch low before I
started. I just ran out of adjustment.
When I first dropped the coach, both adjusters were nearly all the way out.
The left side was waaay low, and the right side was high. Bringing up the
left side leveled it out.
I'll talk Ken into bringing his scales to Bean Station next year.
Rick "not turning that unloader again" Denney
On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 10:32 PM Charles Boyd
wrote:
> Hi Rick.... funny things happen when you have dueling torsion bars.
> Especially when one is in and one is out. When you jack one side it tries
> to
> take the other side with it and pushing down on opposite corner. I might
> try backing off on the one to much in and bring the other to ~ the same
> threads and check. When raising or lowering it should always be done
> together and the bolts close to Being the same. Sometimes you just gotta
> put it
> where you think it should be ideally and start over. Putting it on scales
> would tell the tale, if the fronts weigh the same it will be level then you
> can raise or lower equally the same amount of turns. Ken brought his
> scales, 3 pm next Tuesday, you got time to get here.. Kim says 194 coaches
> are
> here. They are everywhere..
> --
> C. Boyd
> 76 Crestmont
> East Tennessee
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323936 is a reply to message #323913] |
Sat, 16 September 2017 21:15 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I drove the coach back from Hagerstown--about 50 miles over hill and dale,
including five roundabouts, some signals, a loop ramp, some really narrow
roads, and some extended highway cruise. In short, a comprehensive steering
and handling test, except that I haven't yet tested Interstate truck bow
waves or big crosswinds.
The coach drove well before, but now it drives like a van.
I think the right leveling valve is not raising properly--some work to do
there. If I raise it high, it drops down correctly, but I'm not sure it's
going the other way.
But I think the Redhead could drive it confidently now.
Rick "nothing like a tight and well-adjusted front end" Denney
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alignment Blues [message #323960 is a reply to message #323936] |
Sun, 17 September 2017 19:15 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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You know, I forgot to mention the brakes. The much bigger brakes in the
one-ton kit DO make a DIFFERENCE. With no other changes (except a good
flush), and with no defects in the old brakes that I can find, the brakes
went from "work well but yes this is a motorhome" to "work well, period".
Pedal effort is noticeably reduced.
I just finished doing something all of Manny's customers need to remember
to do: I just crated up (using the same crate Manny sent) the cores, and
will go find a truck freight company tomorrow that will ship them back to
Manny. (Manny, look in the box in the middle. I took out the 3.07 FD, but
the Redhead left you a surprise.) Manny probably has more cores of various
things than anyone knows, but there have been times (as I read in the
archives) when his stock of control arms has run low. I'm sending him
knuckles, too, which he doesn't want, but they are still attached to the
upper control arms I'm sending him. I somehow forgot to pop those ball
joints.
Rick "as it turns out, making a quick air trip to Houston in lieu of a slow
GMC trip to Elkhart" Denney
On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 10:15 PM, Richard Denney wrote:
> I drove the coach back from Hagerstown--about 50 miles over hill and dale,
> including five roundabouts, some signals, a loop ramp, some really narrow
> roads, and some extended highway cruise. In short, a comprehensive steering
> and handling test, except that I haven't yet tested Interstate truck bow
> waves or big crosswinds.
>
> The coach drove well before, but now it drives like a van.
>
>
>
--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
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