Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR
| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #321597 is a reply to message #321587] |
Thu, 03 August 2017 16:55   |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Jim,
Agreed!
The problem with the GMC AC is the pressure drop through the whole system which is caused by the number of turns the air flow has to make. IIRC from my Hamilton Standard field rep days each 90° turn is like adding 5 - 7 feet of ducting. I can't remember how many turns it makes. This subject has been addressed here before as I vaguely remember stating this earlier.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Kanomata
Sent: Friday, August 4, 2017 5:48 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR
We need to determin feet per min. velocity through the Coil, as we know
anything over 500 ft/min face volocity can cause the condensate to blow
into the ducts and water droplets will be a problem. Having a 3-4 speed can
help avoid that to some degree.
If there is a way to find the data of our origional blower , it might guide
one to avoid problems.
We can take data off all the outlets and try to get approximate cfm it
produces at MAX.
Average Vel times the area of each and add them up. We have the
instruments, but now for me to do it.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:47 AM, John Phillips
wrote:
> To bad it does not list a 17-39-22
> There are 3 blowers listing that I think could work
> http://www.spalautomotive.com/eng/products/view_centrifugal.
> aspx?id=017-A40-73
> http://www.spalautomotive.com/eng/products/view_centrifugal.
> aspx?id=017-A46-73
> http://www.spalautomotive.com/eng/products/view_centrifugal.
> aspx?id=017-A54-73
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:19 AM, KB wrote:
>
>> johnd01 wrote on Thu, 03 August 2017 10:11
>>> I did see some specs for the 15-1556 before I found it on Amazon. As I
>>> recall it was 14 amps max and 800 CFM at 1 inch of water. I will see if
>> I can find the data again.
>>
>>
>> That would be awesome. FWIW, here's a really good page I found for the
>> SPAL blower models:
>> http://www.spalautomotive.com/eng/products/centrifugal_12D.aspx
>>
>> We're trying to figure out what the oem blower runs in terms of amps.
> The
>> fusible link is 30 amps,
>> so has to run much less than that.
>>
>> Also, what size is the oem blower wheel? I'm having trouble finding
> that
>> info.
>> I think a double blower would be more efficient, but not if its wheels
> are
>> too small.
>> Lots of trade offs here.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Karen
>> 1975 26'
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Phillips*
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #321598 is a reply to message #321596] |
Thu, 03 August 2017 17:35 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Tom,
Your mod is quite clever, I was wondering why you didn't attach the blower directly to the back of the A/C plenum?
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Pryor
Sent: Friday, August 4, 2017 7:48 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR
The MCC Centrifugal Fan assembly (15-1561 )that I purchased some 2Yrs ago
was about $80. It is rated at 650 CFM with a static resistance of 3" H20.
I located a dealer that sells them for 80.57 plus shipping. See http://www.
buspartswarehouse.com/Products/A-C-Blower-Assemblies/2619902.html?whence=
Phone 800) 635-5567
*I AM TRYING TO GET A MORE RECOGNIZED SOURCE FOR THIS FAN.*.........DON'T
BE AFRAID OF SPAL OR OTHER RECOGNIZED NAMES THAT HAVE INTEGRAL RESISTORS.
FYI..................... THE MCC PART NO 15-1556 ON AMAZON IS A 24V
FAN.............DON'T DISAPPOINT YOUR YOUR SELF.
--
Regards,
Tom Pryor
4188 Limerick Dr
Lake Wales, Fl 33859
Cell 248 470 9186
Living on a waterfront is not a matter of life or death. Its more
important than that.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #321600 is a reply to message #321598] |
Thu, 03 August 2017 18:23 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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I'll answer that, based on my complete redesign & construction: First off,
in Tom's case, he didn't want to build a new HVAC box, which would be
required to provide room in front of the existing box for the blower.
He might, of course, have hung the blower below the box and only had one
bend in the air flow, but that would have partially obstructed the radiator.
Most importantly, for Tom's and My mods: The problem of providing supply
air to the blower. With the blower out front, where we'd really like it to
be for most-linear air flow, one would have to provide ducting from the
cockpit out to and completely surrounding the blower. A BIG fabrication
job.
If you look at all of the dual blowers, you'll see that they all induct air
to the wheels from both sides -- the outside and around the center-mounted
motor. I seriously consider closing the motor side and using round ducts
into each side, but finally figured out that the wheels would be seriously
starved for supply air.
Among other strikes against the idea.
Tom, feel free to supply your own reasons if this doesn't cover it.
Ken H.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Tom,
>
> Your mod is quite clever, I was wondering why you didn't attach the blower
> directly to the back of the A/C plenum?
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Ken Henderson
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #321604 is a reply to message #321600] |
Thu, 03 August 2017 19:21 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
I may be confused but doesn't Tom's design connect ducts from the floor to the BACK of the HVAC box?
My question meant to find out why not just bolt the blower directly to the back of the HVAC box?
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Friday, August 4, 2017 9:24 AM
To: GMC Mail List
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR
I'll answer that, based on my complete redesign & construction: First off,
in Tom's case, he didn't want to build a new HVAC box, which would be
required to provide room in front of the existing box for the blower.
He might, of course, have hung the blower below the box and only had one
bend in the air flow, but that would have partially obstructed the radiator.
Most importantly, for Tom's and My mods: The problem of providing supply
air to the blower. With the blower out front, where we'd really like it to
be for most-linear air flow, one would have to provide ducting from the
cockpit out to and completely surrounding the blower. A BIG fabrication
job.
If you look at all of the dual blowers, you'll see that they all induct air
to the wheels from both sides -- the outside and around the center-mounted
motor. I seriously consider closing the motor side and using round ducts
into each side, but finally figured out that the wheels would be seriously
starved for supply air.
Among other strikes against the idea.
Tom, feel free to supply your own reasons if this doesn't cover it.
Ken H.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Tom,
>
> Your mod is quite clever, I was wondering why you didn't attach the blower
> directly to the back of the A/C plenum?
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #321605 is a reply to message #321604] |
Thu, 03 August 2017 20:02 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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We may be referring to different "backs" -- to me, that means the forward,
outside, surface of the HVAC box -- in other words, nearest the front of
the coach.
The blower is inside the cockpit, so it's inducting air from there rather
than having to have it ducted to a location on the outside of the HVAC box.
Ken H.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I may be confused but doesn't Tom's design connect ducts from the floor to
> the BACK of the HVAC box?
>
> My question meant to find out why not just bolt the blower directly to the
> back of the HVAC box?
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #321606 is a reply to message #321605] |
Thu, 03 August 2017 20:12 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
Let's use aircraft terms.
I think Tom's blower mod feeds air to the tail end of the HVAC box.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/i-need-more-air/p63444-ab-thumb-img-0955-1024.html
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Friday, August 4, 2017 11:02 AM
To: GMC Mail List
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR
We may be referring to different "backs" -- to me, that means the forward,
outside, surface of the HVAC box -- in other words, nearest the front of
the coach.
The blower is inside the cockpit, so it's inducting air from there rather
than having to have it ducted to a location on the outside of the HVAC box.
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #321607 is a reply to message #321604] |
Thu, 03 August 2017 20:29 |
johnd01
Messages: 354
Registered: July 2017
Location: Sacrameot
Karma: -1
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We need someone to get some data on how well this works. Air flow and
temperature differential temperature. If the evaporator is not cold it does
not matter how much air you push if you are counting on cooling. If you are
counting and having fast moving 100-degree air, well that is a different
story.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I may be confused but doesn't Tom's design connect ducts from the floor to
> the BACK of the HVAC box?
>
> My question meant to find out why not just bolt the blower directly to the
> back of the HVAC box?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken
> Henderson
> Sent: Friday, August 4, 2017 9:24 AM
> To: GMC Mail List
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR
>
> I'll answer that, based on my complete redesign & construction: First off,
> in Tom's case, he didn't want to build a new HVAC box, which would be
> required to provide room in front of the existing box for the blower.
> He might, of course, have hung the blower below the box and only had one
> bend in the air flow, but that would have partially obstructed the
> radiator.
>
> Most importantly, for Tom's and My mods: The problem of providing supply
> air to the blower. With the blower out front, where we'd really like it to
> be for most-linear air flow, one would have to provide ducting from the
> cockpit out to and completely surrounding the blower. A BIG fabrication
> job.
>
> If you look at all of the dual blowers, you'll see that they all induct air
> to the wheels from both sides -- the outside and around the center-mounted
> motor. I seriously consider closing the motor side and using round ducts
> into each side, but finally figured out that the wheels would be seriously
> starved for supply air.
> Among other strikes against the idea.
>
> Tom, feel free to supply your own reasons if this doesn't cover it.
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Rob Mueller
> wrote:
>
>> Tom,
>>
>> Your mod is quite clever, I was wondering why you didn't attach the
> blower
>> directly to the back of the A/C plenum?
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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*John Phillips*
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #321609 is a reply to message #321607] |
Thu, 03 August 2017 20:41 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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John,
The compressor / evaporator have more than enough capacity. The problem is air flow.
What year GMC do you have?
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of John Phillips
Sent: Friday, August 4, 2017 11:29 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR
We need someone to get some data on how well this works. Air flow and
temperature differential temperature. If the evaporator is not cold it does
not matter how much air you push if you are counting on cooling. If you are
counting and having fast moving 100-degree air, well that is a different
story.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
*John Phillips*
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #321612 is a reply to message #321606] |
Thu, 03 August 2017 20:58 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Yep, I agree. And so do I. Simply because its too difficult to route
"return air" to a blower at the nose end of the HVAC box.
Ken H.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 9:12 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Let's use aircraft terms.
>
> I think Tom's blower mod feeds air to the tail end of the HVAC box.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/i-need-more-air/p63444-
> ab-thumb-img-0955-1024.html
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken
> Henderson
> Sent: Friday, August 4, 2017 11:02 AM
> To: GMC Mail List
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR
>
> We may be referring to different "backs" -- to me, that means the forward,
> outside, surface of the HVAC box -- in other words, nearest the front of
> the coach.
>
> The blower is inside the cockpit, so it's inducting air from there rather
> than having to have it ducted to a location on the outside of the HVAC box.
>
> Ken H.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #321615 is a reply to message #321614] |
Fri, 04 August 2017 06:55 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Adding a resistor package is a trivial obstacle. Probably be able to acquire one easily at any men's mall. Nothing special.
More fun would be a PWM module and really control the speed to exactly what you need.
Doing the 'pin out' on the cable would be interesting, but I think you would want to roll your own design.
Tom, MS II
1975 Avion sale
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #321677 is a reply to message #321634] |
Sat, 05 August 2017 21:36 |
johnd01
Messages: 354
Registered: July 2017
Location: Sacrameot
Karma: -1
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Has anyone finished and tested this mod?
On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 2:53 PM, KB wrote:
> Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 04 August 2017 05:32
>> I knew it was something....
>>
>> Since Tom and I first talked about this, something kicked up a parity
> error flag and it has taken me a while to track it down...
>>
>> Where Tom put blowers is where 73&4 have the MAX AIR outlet part tacked
> on. That piece it essential if one is to have any A/C performance at all
>> in the older coaches.
>>
>> Matt
>
>
> We have a 75 with the 'max air' opening and the goofy scoop thing to
> direct it upwards from the floor.
> Since that's what we use 99% of the time, it was a concern for me too.
> There seems to be enough room between the scoop and the engine hatch
> opening, and I was also considering partially recessing
> the blower into the floor to make it less of a giant lump. If you don't
> have the scoop though,
> you'd risk having all your AC output being sucked back into the intake of
> the new blower.
>
> Looks like it's still workable to me.
>
> I was just comparing this to the other modification, where you mount the
> OEM blower on the front side of the case.
> The problem with that is it's sucking air through the evap instead of
> blowing it, and we were concerned about
> the water/vapor going through the blower motor. Short of a major rework
> or replacement of the enormous OEM box,
> Tom's idea looks like a good improvement.
>
> Karen
> 1975 26'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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*John Phillips*
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #322118 is a reply to message #321873] |
Mon, 14 August 2017 21:33 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
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KB wrote on Wed, 09 August 2017 19:25johnd01 wrote on Sat, 05 August 2017 19:36Has anyone finished and tested this mod?
Just got my blower in the mail today and hope to try the mod in the next few days.
Karen
1975 26'
Well, not as good as I hoped. I chose to try abandoning the max air vent, so mounted the new blower
directly on the back of the AC box. I thought about mounting it further back and keeping the max air vent "snorkel",
but I didn't want that much protrusion into the cockpit. Without the max air slot open, it's basically the
same as the 73/74 box
We have an anemometer for measuring wind speed, so for lack of a better tool, I used that. All measurements
were taken with AC blower set to "high". The stock system with the max air vent closed got about 2 meters
per second (mps) out of the center dash vents. With the new blower, they got 3mps. The stock max air duct vents with
the oem blower got about 6mps, so double even the improved center vents. With no duct in front of the max air slot, it's 9+mps.
So, with the new blower, there was a definite improvement out of the center dash vents, though still nothing out of
the passenger side vent. However, it was nowhere near as good as the max air vent with the stock blower. There's also
the issue of the blower noise, though that could likely be improved upon with a baffle.
I think Mark Wall pretty well summed it up in his presentation, when he said
it wouldn't matter how much air you push through it, the oem (pre-77) ducts are the problem.
He did quite an interesting bunch of modifications, if you haven't seen them:
http://www.gmcmi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/HVAC-Systems.pdf
FWIW, I was able to use the stock resistor pack with the new blower. Slightly easier
than modifying the wiring to use the new resistors, though that's not bad either.
The oem resistors are about half the ohms of the new pack.
Since I was only measuring "high", it didn't matter.
I'll probably play with this more later, but for now I'm out of time.
If I can get the heater core out, I think I could do Mark Wall's vent modifications
without removing the whole AC box.
Karen
1975 26'
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| Re: [GMCnet] WE ALL NEED MORE AIR [message #322130 is a reply to message #320582] |
Tue, 15 August 2017 08:58 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I'll point out for those of us attending the December in Orlando Pet The Puppy And Spend Money rally at Wekiwa Springs, they day trip to SkyCraft should produce workable blowers for this mod. The have an aisle of them in various configurations.
Ten sites left in the favored loop, 21 total available out of 60 total. Book early or be left out.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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