Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement
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Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265705 is a reply to message #265694] |
Sun, 09 November 2014 07:47 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
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Keith V wrote on Sat, 08 November 2014 23:25KB wrote on Sat, 08 November 2014 13:37JohnL455 wrote on Sat, 08 November 2014 06:49My assumption was always that the shaft was an addaptatiin of an off the shelf Spicer truck part and still available. My concern is that in the video the upper joint appears to be a U joint and not a CV. That would provide non linear speed transmission from the wheel to the box. That could provide a wierd non linear driving experience.
Interesting point. My current theory is that they used a CV joint at the top because it can handle bigger angles than most u-joints, so could apply to more vehicles. I think the non-linear u-joint response you mention helps explain why it's so critical to get the steering shaft aligned correctly to the center of the steering box.
Two u-joints, phased correctly, mostly counteract each other and act more like a CV joint.
I wonder if having a u-joint at the top, phased with the lower joint, would help counteract the non-linearity of the lower u-joint?
If we added a third u-joint (a double at the top, a single at the bottom), we'd have to add an intermediate support,
which adds more complexity than I'd want to deal with.
just thinking out loud...
Karen
1975 26'
2 u joints only cancel if their angles are the same.
And the top steering angle is way different than the lower angle. They wont cancel.
Now in a slow speed device like a steering wheel, I'm betting you won't notice it much.
I think the CV joint is a better solution.
I do wonder about the stiffness of the DD shaft in a heavy application like the GMC.
I'm betting there is a little twist during turning...
Here is the double joint I was talking about. Not two separate u-joints.
http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Stainless_Steel_Double_Universal_Joints-orderby_0-p-1-c-12.html
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265773 is a reply to message #265734] |
Mon, 10 November 2014 10:58 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337 Registered: March 2008 Location: Mounds View,MN
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I actually use the double U-Joint on my '69 Corvette rack and pinion conversion.
It definitely needs the center support but it does work quite well.
Note that there are 3 u-joints. I probably could have gotten away with only 2 but I didn't want to buy another u-joint when I had a working system.
That support is a special oversize spherical rod end and needs a really stiff mounting location. If it moves you will feel it. Mine is on a piece of reinforced 1/4 inch plate.
Here's a large picture showing the setup;
http://www.corvettengineering.com/cgi-bin/slide?dir=../photos/Brakes;file=Brake%20System.JPG
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265774 is a reply to message #265731] |
Mon, 10 November 2014 11:00 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337 Registered: March 2008 Location: Mounds View,MN
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KB wrote on Sun, 09 November 2014 12:05Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 09 November 2014 09:34Yes, I realized that but I just wanted to throw that option into the mix.
Also I thought someone said that stainless DD shafts were not available from Borgeson. Is this what we are looking for?
http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Stainless_Steel_Steering_Shafts-orderby_0-p-1-c-20.html
http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/Polished_Stainless_Steel_Steering_Shafts-orderby_0-p-1-c-21.html
the 3/4" inner DD shaft is available in stainless, but the outer sleeve of the telescoping shaft is only available in steel, as far as I can tell.
Personally, I'd just get the regular DD shaft and coat it with anti-sieze as you suggested earlier. But, I'm still concerned about the angles involved, so
not 100% sure this is a prime time solution. It obviously works in Jim F's coach though, so who knows.
Karen
1975 26'
I think the outer doesn't matter. you can paint the outside and the inside will be coated in grease.
The DD is what I would want Stainless anyway so it doesn't rust and tear up the seal
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265812 is a reply to message #265774] |
Mon, 10 November 2014 16:12 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912 Registered: July 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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G'day,
Got the following response from Borgeson today:
***************************************************************************************************************
From: Gil Evans [mailto:Gil@borgeson.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 1:52 AM
To: Robert Mueller
Subject: RE: Torque Capacity
You can be assured that these parts will hold up; we use them in manual steering vehicles as well.
Gil Evans
Borgeson Universal Company
91 Technology Park Drive
Torrington, CT 06790 USA
(860)482-8283
(860)496-9320 FAX
gil@borgeson.com
***************************************************************************************************************
And that's THAT! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #265886 is a reply to message #265688] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 18:36 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912 Registered: July 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
I just got confirmation that the flights I booked down to Adelaide for December 2nd returning December 6th were confirmed.
I'm sure Peter and I can put together a photo album that shows what Alex does.
I reckon that watching the video that will be produced at the GMCMI Convention and using the photos that Peter and I will produce
"blind Freddie" could do this job! ;-)
For those of you wonder who blind Freddie was:
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/blind-freddie
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Rob,
At GMCMI Patterson, LA in March 2015, Alex Ferrara and I (plus others) are
supposed to give seminars, and demonstrations, from Steering Wheel to
Ground on alignment. I'm hoping you'll have your column photos and paper
read by then, to accompany your wear test paper as documentation! :-)
The GMCMI paper budget probably won't support printing handouts of all that
for the attendees, but we can at least be sure they make it to the GMCMI
web site.
Newly purchased video equipment should make it possible for the entire
audience to see what's going on during the hands-on portions of the party.
Y'All come!
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266522 is a reply to message #266519] |
Sat, 22 November 2014 15:52 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912 Registered: July 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Karen,
Point of clarification, could you please advise some more details regarding; "Unfortunately these can only go on the DD telescoping
shaft one way, and that way is NOT correctly phased?"
Are you saying you can not perform Alex's steering box alignment procedure?
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6588-steering-box.html
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: KB
well, poop. That set of u-joints won't work with each other:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p56544-borgeson-and-flaming-r.html
Also, I checked with Dave Lenzi about buying new OEM type steering shafts. He doesn't have any and doesn't know if/when he will be
able to get them. Apparently Spicer (the maker of the oem shafts) is in Chapter 13 and the holding company is impossible to deal
with.
Karen
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266527 is a reply to message #265311] |
Sat, 22 November 2014 17:12 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565 Registered: July 2012 Location: Harvest, Al
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I'm not an engineer but I'm thinking it really wouldn't make any difference. It's not a driveshaft with a lot of weight and RPM. Our rpm on the steering shaft will be a single digit number...probably a very low single digit. The only time you'll turn more than a few degrees is when slow speed turning.
We know it works...right...Jim Fawcet has been running it for a year.
Perhaps one of the professional engineer types can explain why it would make a noticeable difference. I'd appreciate the education.
I'm not the least bit sure that my roadster is in or out of phase. I'll go look later.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266531 is a reply to message #266519] |
Sat, 22 November 2014 17:13 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117 Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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O
On Saturday, November 22, 2014, KB wrote:
> well, poop. That set of u-joints won't work with each other:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p56544-borgeson-and-flaming-r.html
>
> Also, I checked with Dave Lenzi about buying new OEM type steering
> shafts. He doesn't have any and doesn't know if/when he will be able to
> get them.
> Apparently Spicer (the maker of the oem shafts) is in Chapter 13 and the
> holding company is impossible to deal with.
Get peters. Everything was new on his coach
>
> Karen
> 1975 26'
>
>
>
> KB wrote on Thu, 06 November 2014 10:37
>> just an update:
>>
>> Borgeson u-joints are good to 35 degrees, and we already know they work
> here.
>>
>> The pinch-bolt type u-joints do require notching the shaft for the
> shoulder bolt to clear (a good thing), so probably a good fit for our lower
>> u-joint.
>>
>> So, my current shopping list:
>> upper u-joint: Borgeson 1"-48x1"DD (stainless: #114352)
>> DD slip shaft (Borgeson 450024 or others)
>> lower u-joint: Flaming River 13/16"-36 x 3/4DD pinch-bolt u-joint
> (stainless: FR2719DD)
>>
>> I think there are a lot of possible solutions. Thanks to Jim Fawcett
> for heading down this path and figuring out the sizes.
>>
>> Karen
>> 1975 26'
>
>
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“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
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Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266539 is a reply to message #265311] |
Sat, 22 November 2014 18:23 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565 Registered: July 2012 Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Karen, the problem is because of the mix of manufacturers. If you took either of those and put it on both ends, it would be in phase. Obviously, it wouldn't fit the needed splines but I'm confident you can find both ends from the same manufacturer.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266542 is a reply to message #266529] |
Sat, 22 November 2014 18:35 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912 Registered: July 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Karen,
I did not ask my question with enough detail.
For clarification the following comments assume an OEM steering wheel with two spokes as pictured in Parts Book 78Z page 16-14.
The procedure Alex uses sets up the following conditions:
1) Steering wheel spokes perpendicular to the GMC's fore / aft axis
2) Lower (AKA intermediate) steering column CV joint, slip joint, and universal joint assembled and clocked as per Maintenance
Manual X-7625 / Page 9-3 / Figure 1 - Lower Steering Shaft (Disassembled)
3) The splines in item 7. Flange in Figure 1 installed into to the spline on the steering column with the correct clocking /
orientation of the bolt and the slot in the Flange and the recess in the steering column. As I understand it, it is possible to be
off one spline clockwise or counter clockwise.
4) Item 10. Yoke in Figure 1 attached to the steering box input shaft with the correct clocking / orientation of the bolt and the
slot in the steering box input shaft (determined by using a 29/64 inch drill).
5) Steering box input shaft oriented as per the photos in Alex's procedure.
6) Drag link / tie rod ends set so that the wheels are oriented for straight ahead travel.
Your comments about not being able to phase the Borgeson and Flaming River joint made me think it would effect the steps above,
however, upon a bit more thought I realized that's not a problem as the tie rod ends can be adjusted to set the box on center with
the steering wheel oriented as noted in step 1 above and the wheels oriented for straight ahead travel.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of KB
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2014 10:26 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement
no, it's not a problem with mounting the u-joint to the steering box. The problem is you can not orient
the two u-joints relative to each other on the DD shaft with correct phasing (so they cancel out each other's non-linear motion).
One of the u-joints would have to be rotated 90 degrees (so it's a mirror image of the one on the other end of the shaft).
But you can't do that because then it won't fit onto the DD shaft.
Karen
1975 26'
USAussie wrote on Sat, 22 November 2014 13:52
> Karen,
>
> Point of clarification, could you please advise some more details regarding; "Unfortunately these can only go on the DD
telescoping
> shaft one way, and that way is NOT correctly phased?"
>
> Are you saying you can not perform Alex's steering box alignment procedure?
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6588-steering-box.html
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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