Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch
| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247424 is a reply to message #247421] |
Mon, 14 April 2014 18:38   |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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Ask Todd Sullivan if baffles in between the grill and radiator are
effective. He saw at least 35 degrees temp reduction recently in Southern
California after fitting some with some plywood and duct tape. FIELD REPAIR
EXPEDIENT.
JIM HUPY
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Apr 14, 2014 4:31 PM, "Kerry Pinkerton" <Pinkertonk@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
>
> At what speed of the coach is the fan no longer needed or accomplishing
> much? 15mph, 30mph?
>
> Has anyone collected any REAL data on the effectiveness of front baffles?
> I'm convinced they offer a significant benefit at speed but that is just
> an opinion....not a data driven fact.
>
> My coach has one of the Aluminum Radiators from Dotson and company. In
> the 6K miles I've driven it since I bought it, I've heard the fan come on
> TWICE. The first time scared the crap out of me because I didn't know what
> it was.
>
> That said, I've never really had it in hot weather....about the most was
> in the mid 80's.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as
> an Art Deco car hauler
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247436 is a reply to message #247395] |
Mon, 14 April 2014 20:08 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| James Hupy wrote on Mon, 14 April 2014 12:22 |
An idea that has popped into my head from time to time is an identical
blade configuration to what we now have with a full coverage shroud with
diffusers between the grill and radiator, much like the 77-78 coaches have.
The differences being that the fan hub, instead of a viscous clutch, has a
thermostatically modulated feathering mechanism similar to an aircraft
propeller. One of the GMC CASCADERS builds a feathering hub for a turboprop
engine that he builds for homebuilt aircraft utilizing an APU from a
Chinook twin rotor helicopter. It looks robust enough to me for feathering
a coolant fan. What do you all think? Please don't slay the messenger, I am
just in the idea phase of this deal.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Apr 14, 2014 11:07 AM, "Les Burt" <lburt@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Patrick,
> A very interesting example that brings a few thoughts to mind.
>
> Moving air with a fan takes horsepower, the higher the air flow being
> moved, the higher the HP consumed. I don't have exact facts to quote, but I
> do believe that the OEM fans on our coaches consume several HP because of
> the air they need to move. Trying to produce the equivalent airflow with
> electric fans is going to require a fairly hefty electrical output
> (possibly 150-200a?) to supply 1 or 2 powerful fan motors, or several
> smaller units. This is what I believe is the limiting factor in converting
> our coaches.
>
> The Buses with electric fans are probably not using them because they cool
> better, but because they are an easier system to implement and maintain.
> Running electrical wires and coolant hoses through tight quarters and
> around corners presents fewer difficulties than routing mechanical power in
> the same environment. Hydraulic fans are similar to Electric in that
> respect.
>
>
>
>
> fitzmorrispr wrote on Sat, 12 April 2014 23:59
> > There is one question I can answer in here. "Can an all electric fan
> setup
> > cool our rigs properly?"
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > Evidence?
> >
> > The local transit agency, LA County's Metro, uses all electric cooling on
> > their 45 foot NABI CompoBuses. These units are running large inline 6
> > turbocharged CNG engines. And by large I do mean large. Upwards of 8
> > liters, as I recall.
> >
> > Being rear engined, with a longitudinally mounted engine, the radiator is
> > alongside the block, much like it would be in a small transverse mounted
> > fwd car, but with lots more room. Electric is not even close to the only
> > option. Many of the older buses in their fleet, such as older New Flyers
> > and NABIs use other setups. One example runs a very long belt across the
> > back of the compartment to a pulley on a long shaft, which runs into a
> > gearbox on the back of the fan. Another runs the fan off the (gear
> driven)
> > power steering pump. This hydraulic fan was powerful enough to pull you
> off
> > balance if you happened to be next to the radiator. On similarly built
> > diesel school buses, I have seen setups where the radiator is mounted
> > diagonally in a box, so the fan can be directly belt driven, while the
> air
> > is pulled from alongside the engine.
> >
> > The cooling needs of the compobus are much the same as these other
> variants
> > I've mentioned, but the compobus uses electric fans, and has no cooling
> > issues. It uses an array of nine small fans mounted directly to the
> > radiator. They look like computer fans.
> >
> > Just my loose change.
> > -Patrick
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
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>
>
> --
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
>
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Why not just utilize the OEM proven and tested electronically modulated viscous clutch we discussed earlier?
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247452 is a reply to message #247394] |
Mon, 14 April 2014 21:38 |
shawnee
Messages: 422
Registered: February 2004
Location: NC
Karma: 0
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Al,
I tried a system with two large fans mounted in an metal shroud. The set up was that one fan would come on first at a low speed and increase speed as the engine temperature would increase to full speed. At a full load of the first fan, the second fan would come on full speed. The killer was that the fans would over ride the desired engine temperature and the amperage of the two fans at full speed was too high. I also had a diagonal baffle in the system to prevent pulling air in on the idle fan and not through the radiator. I made several adjustments to the fan's temperature to try to hold the engine temperature relatively constant, but it just didn't work out.
Gene Dotson
74 Canyonlands
www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
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| Re: Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247454 is a reply to message #246772] |
Mon, 14 April 2014 21:45 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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The transit bus is in the truck grade stuff category. Big stuff like 300a alternators
The feathering prop is interesting, except unlike in aircraft, feathering for us would be flat (no pitch) and that would create a restriction to natural road speed airflow
Most cars turn off the electric fans above about 45 unless there is extremely high coolant temps. Saves energy and doesn't move enough additional air. With us the temp can creep up at even 65-70 MPH and the clutch fan will come on and dissipate the heat in a short time Proves the clutch fan moves more air than highway road speed airflow alone.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247456 is a reply to message #247436] |
Mon, 14 April 2014 21:52 |
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burtco99
Messages: 31
Registered: September 2007
Location: Montreal
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Mon, 14 April 2014 21:08 |
Why not just utilize the OEM proven and tested electronically modulated viscous clutch we discussed earlier?
|
Given the time, I do want to explore those clutches. My 2008 F250 with 6.4 Diesel has one and I like how it works. From my quick observations, it appears to be either engaged or disengaged. It is hard to tell if it modulates between the two under moderate heat loads, so I wonder if they would work acceptably well with a suitable electrical on-off signal, forgetting any modulation in between?
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
[Updated on: Mon, 14 April 2014 21:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247525 is a reply to message #247434] |
Tue, 15 April 2014 17:14 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
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I was having above "normal " temps with The Pig despite new radiator,hoses,water pump,engine, blocked crossover on intake, new fan clutch etc. I have the oem fan shroud without Venturi ring. The elevated temps were only experienced at hi way speeds and were tied to travel speed. The faster I went, the hotter it got. After conversing with Jim Hupy on the phone while I was in LA looking the engine over he asked me about the air deflectors in front of the radiator and behind the grill. I had none and there had not been any there since I bought the coach. Jim described them to me and I rigged up deflectors with 1/8" plywood sheet/ rebar tie wire/ jigsaw. The temps on the way home never got above 220 and typically hovered at 200-210 no matter the travel speed. I ha seen peak temps of 240 prior even after backing down the travel speed to drop the temp. If your coach does not have these deflectors in place I highly recommend you buy some ( I hear Bert and Fay make them) or make up a
pair.
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
> On Apr 14, 2014, at 5:53 PM, KB <kab7@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hey Kerry, Armand Minnie did a very nice write-up about the air baffles he installed, and the effect on the fan clutch.
> See:
> http://minniebiz.com/gmcmotorhome/2011/05/20/gmc-engine-cooling-issues/
>
> Baffles are on my wish list...
>
> Karen
> 1973 23'
> 1975 26'
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247526 is a reply to message #247525] |
Tue, 15 April 2014 17:30 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| sgltrac wrote on Tue, 15 April 2014 16:14 |
I was having above "normal " temps with The Pig despite new radiator,hoses,water pump,engine, blocked crossover on intake, new fan clutch etc. I have the oem fan shroud without Venturi ring. The elevated temps were only experienced at hi way speeds and were tied to travel speed. The faster I went, the hotter it got. After conversing with Jim Hupy on the phone while I was in LA looking the engine over he asked me about the air deflectors in front of the radiator and behind the grill. I had none and there had not been any there since I bought the coach. Jim described them to me and I rigged up deflectors with 1/8" plywood sheet/ rebar tie wire/ jigsaw. The temps on the way home never got above 220 and typically hovered at 200-210 no matter the travel speed. I ha seen peak temps of 240 prior even after backing down the travel speed to drop the temp. If your coach does not have these deflectors in place I highly recommend you buy some ( I hear Bert and Fay make them) or make up a
pair.
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
> On Apr 14, 2014, at 5:53 PM, KB <kab7@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hey Kerry, Armand Minnie did a very nice write-up about the air baffles he installed, and the effect on the fan clutch.
> See:
> http://minniebiz.com/gmcmotorhome/2011/05/20/gmc-engine-cooling-issues/
>
> Baffles are on my wish list...
>
> Karen
> 1973 23'
> 1975 26'
>
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I can't remember if those went into production with the new AC system in 77 or the 403 in 77 1/2
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247530 is a reply to message #247525] |
Tue, 15 April 2014 18:38 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Frank Jenkins makes them also, from what is apparently fabric reinforced
rubber conveyor belt material. I made mine from some plastic tractor mud
flaps I had on hand.
Ken H.
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Todd Sullivan wrote:
> I was having above "normal " temps with The Pig despite new radiator,hoses
> ,water pump,engine, blocked crossover on intake, new fan clutch etc. I
> have the oem fan shroud without Venturi ring. The elevated temps were
> only experienced at hi way speeds and were tied to travel speed. The
> faster I went, the hotter it got. After conversing with Jim Hupy on the
> phone while I was in LA looking the engine over he asked me about the air
> deflectors in front of the radiator and behind the grill. I had none and
> there had not been any there since I bought the coach. Jim described them
> to me and I rigged up deflectors with 1/8" plywood sheet/ rebar tie wire/
> jigsaw. The temps on the way home never got above 220 and typically hovered
> at 200-210 no matter the travel speed. I ha seen peak temps of 240 prior
> even after backing down the travel speed to drop the temp. If your coach
> does not have these deflectors in place I highly recommend you buy some ( I
> hear Bert and Fay make them) or make up a
> pair.
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247555 is a reply to message #247530] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 00:05 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
Here's a pair I got from Frank installed:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/air-dams/p39886-air-dams-on-double-trouble.html
I know, not much help! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Frank Jenkins makes them also, from what is apparently fabric reinforced
rubber conveyor belt material. I made mine from some plastic tractor mud
flaps I had on hand.
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247556 is a reply to message #246964] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 00:49 |
jim kanomata
Messages: 257
Registered: March 2007
Location: fremont,ca
Karma: 12
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We will be coming up with an electric fan unit in few month.
On our Air Filter side we design systems easily as they give not only CFM, but the fan curves that tell us what it can do at different rpm AND PRESSURE DROP.
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247559 is a reply to message #247556] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 01:15 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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You know - I am eager to see some of the new Dodge Ram Promaster vans total out into the boneyards. Those drivetrains might make good transplants for our rigs - and they already have radiators and fans. If anyone understands airflow Jim does. It’s all progress!
Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, CA
On Apr 15, 2014, at 10:49 PM, jim kanomata <jimk@appliedairfilters.com> wrote:
> We will be coming up with an electric fan unit in few month.
> On our Air Filter side we design systems easily as they give not only CFM, but the fan curves that tell us what it can do at different rpm AND PRESSURE DROP.
> --
> Applied/GMC, Fremont, CA
> 1-800-752-7502
> jimk@appliedgmc.com
> www.appliedgmc.com
> _______________________________________________
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247627 is a reply to message #247559] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 13:40 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| ljdavick wrote on Wed, 16 April 2014 00:15 |
You know - I am eager to see some of the new Dodge Ram Promaster vans total out into the boneyards. Those drivetrains might make good transplants for our rigs - and they already have radiators and fans. If anyone understands airflow Jim does. It’s all progress!
Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, CA
On Apr 15, 2014, at 10:49 PM, jim kanomata <jimk@appliedairfilters.com> wrote:
> We will be coming up with an electric fan unit in few month.
> On our Air Filter side we design systems easily as they give not only CFM, but the fan curves that tell us what it can do at different rpm AND PRESSURE DROP.
> --
> Applied/GMC, Fremont, CA
> 1-800-752-7502
> jimk@appliedgmc.com
> www.appliedgmc.com
> _______________________________________________
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Larry, you can get that stuff right now--it's the same as a Dodge/Chrysler minivan with the 6 spd.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247629 is a reply to message #247627] |
Wed, 16 April 2014 13:46 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
I failed to mention that I'm excited to see the diesel's that will arrive here later this year, and then, in time, into our coaches!
Larry Davick
Fremont, California
A Mystery Machine
'76 (ish) Palm Beach
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob de Kruyff" <NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 11:40:11 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch
Larry, you can get that stuff right now--it's the same as a Dodge/Chrysler minivan with the 6 spd.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oh, Sure, Another Fan Clutch [message #247969 is a reply to message #247530] |
Sun, 20 April 2014 16:39 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Correction. Spoke with Fay Friday and they do not make them.
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
> On Apr 15, 2014, at 4:38 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Frank Jenkins makes them also, from what is apparently fabric reinforced
> rubber conveyor belt material. I made mine from some plastic tractor mud
> flaps I had on hand.
>
> Ken H.
>
>
>> On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Todd Sullivan wrote:
>>
>> I was having above "normal " temps with The Pig despite new radiator,hoses
>> ,water pump,engine, blocked crossover on intake, new fan clutch etc. I
>> have the oem fan shroud without Venturi ring. The elevated temps were
>> only experienced at hi way speeds and were tied to travel speed. The
>> faster I went, the hotter it got. After conversing with Jim Hupy on the
>> phone while I was in LA looking the engine over he asked me about the air
>> deflectors in front of the radiator and behind the grill. I had none and
>> there had not been any there since I bought the coach. Jim described them
>> to me and I rigged up deflectors with 1/8" plywood sheet/ rebar tie wire/
>> jigsaw. The temps on the way home never got above 220 and typically hovered
>> at 200-210 no matter the travel speed. I ha seen peak temps of 240 prior
>> even after backing down the travel speed to drop the temp. If your coach
>> does not have these deflectors in place I highly recommend you buy some ( I
>> hear Bert and Fay make them) or make up a
>> pair.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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