Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH
| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #243973 is a reply to message #243968] |
Mon, 17 March 2014 16:51   |
kelvin
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2004
Location: Eugene, OR
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"He stopped too quickly, Officer! I expected him to plow into the car
in front of him, thereby giving me plenty of time to stop to avoid the
debris!"
Yeah... I really don't see this happening. At what point does the
insurance adjuster look you in the eye and say, "Well, we can't have you
modifying your coach just so YOU can avoid hitting someone from behind.
Your brakes are too good."
If that actually happened to someone I'd be astonished. Makes for a fun
story but doesn't pass the BS test, as Mr Foster noted. I would almost
look forward to being in the middle of that argument.
Kelvin
'73 23' with dangerously modified brakes
On 3/17/2014 2:14 PM, Les Burt wrote:
> I guess that this situation should then apply to the many cheap substandard "off shore" parts that we are slowly being forced to use due to attrition. Do we really need to worry this much?
>
> Regarding stock or modified brakes, what is better, rear-ending someone in a panic stop because your stock brakes were barely sufficient, then being determined as responsible because the expert claimed you were following too close?
> OR,
> Having someone rear-end you because your coach stopped in time to avoid the car in front of you? Then having your damage claim refused because of evidence of modified brakes?
>
> I'd take the second scenario because it provides better safety and in most situations the person who hits you will be at fault, so there would be no reason for an insurance adjuster to assess the safety equipment on your coach.
>
> If the damages to my modified coach were sufficiently high, i'd contest a refused claim, if minimal, i'd probably just leave it be. In either case i'd be looking to change insurance providers.
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
>
>
>
> On Mar 16, 2014, at 5:05 PM, Jim Galbavy <j.galbavy@att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Not so sure of changes to braking systems and are they legal. ...
> but has anyone checked with their insurance carrier if they will cover a claim when safety parts that were originally engineered on the motorhome have been replaced with parts that were not certified. I guess my question is. ..... if I replace original parts with non engineered ones and I'm involved in a claim (my fault or not), will they cover my claim.
>
> jim galbavy
> '73 x-CL ANNIE
> Lake Mary, FL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #243976 is a reply to message #243968] |
Mon, 17 March 2014 17:12 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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| Les Burt wrote on Mon, 17 March 2014 16:14 |
snip----
what is better, rear-ending someone in a panic stop because your stock brakes were barely sufficient, then being determined as responsible because the expert claimed you were following too close?
OR,
Having someone rear-end you because your coach stopped in time to avoid the car in front of you? Then having your damage claim refused because of evidence of modified brakes?
snip---
|
I personally would much rather be the driver that got rear ended than the one that did the rear ending.
There is no way it's better to hit someone...ever
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244013 is a reply to message #243896] |
Mon, 17 March 2014 21:13 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| corleyw wrote on Mon, 17 March 2014 07:44 |
Isn't it more accurate to say that if the coaches brakes are modified they are no longer DOT certified? I doubt any of us here are qualified to say if they are "legal" or not. (Of course, if all the individual components are DOT certified, , , ???)
Just my thought, nothing more...
|
Under the DOT, NHTSA sets original equipment standards/regulations for new production only. FMCSA is the only on-road enforcement agency and it is limited to commercial usage only. Some states have inspection regulations that many of you are familiar with. Other than that, you need to consider civil lawsuits if you are involved in an incident. Although modifications are not necessarily a bad thing, you will need to prove the validity of what you did--which is not easy. On the otherhand, some lawyers are more astute than others, so it is best to keep your mouth shut. If you were the cause of an incident, you probably deserve what's coming to you regardless.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244016 is a reply to message #243910] |
Mon, 17 March 2014 21:21 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Jim Galbavy wrote on Mon, 17 March 2014 09:18 |
My question was not that simplistic as switching out shoes or disks. The question was: Will a carrier cover your coach if you change out the approved brake system with one developed by a nonrecognized source. When you switch out systems who assumes the risk? The insurance company? You? The person who sold them to you and/or installed them? Or the person you ran into? or he/she that ran into you. In a claim, the carrier will check out the systems. They are looking for anyway out of the claim. Hit a small import or subcompact with a GMC MH and there is going to be major damage.
jim galbavy
'73 x-CL ANNIE
Lake Mary, FL
|
This sort of gets to the bottom of any modifications. If you trust the safety of your family for what you did, then you should be prepared to explain the validity of that mod to your insurance company. If not, you probably took a chance and lost big time. I will not modify my brake system no matter how attractive the benefits may seem on the surface. Validation of a braking system under all possible circumstances is not what an individual can do. I'm not a purist by any means when it comes to modifications, but be prepared to defend yourself.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244080 is a reply to message #243976] |
Tue, 18 March 2014 09:23 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
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Thanks Keith,
I totally agree, I just worded my comments poorly.
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
On Mar 17, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Keith V <my427v8@hotmail.com> wrote:
Les Burt wrote on Mon, 17 March 2014 16:14
> snip----
>
> what is better, rear-ending someone in a panic stop because your stock brakes were barely sufficient, then being determined as responsible because the expert claimed you were following too close?
> OR,
> Having someone rear-end you because your coach stopped in time to avoid the car in front of you? Then having your damage claim refused because of evidence of modified brakes?
>
> snip---
I personally would much rather be the driver that got rear ended than the one that did the rear ending.
There is no way it's better to hit someone...ever
--
Keith
69 Vette
29 Dodge
75 Royale GMC
Mounds View. MN
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244083 is a reply to message #244016] |
Tue, 18 March 2014 09:44 |
mikethebike
Messages: 331
Registered: January 2014
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I'm not touching the brakes on the GMC as far as modification....I LIKE my parking brake. Now...the 1977 XLCH Sportster.....trashed the stock set up for WILWOOD, 4-piston/fixed calipers, rear mounted up front with HEL S/S lines and 1997 FLH M/C that was a BREMBO brake option. WILWOOD 4-piston/fixed caliper ont back in place of the mechanical drum. Trust me...those are BETTER. Not all that convinced about brake upgrades for the GMC. I don't drive it more than 60 or 65 mph....if I want to go fast I can do 0-60 in 4 sec and 145 on the far end on the BMW.
Product liability has nothing to do with it.
| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Mon, 17 March 2014 21:21 |
| Jim Galbavy wrote on Mon, 17 March 2014 09:18 |
My question was not that simplistic as switching out shoes or disks. The question was: Will a carrier cover your coach if you change out the approved brake system with one developed by a nonrecognized source. When you switch out systems who assumes the risk? The insurance company? You? The person who sold them to you and/or installed them? Or the person you ran into? or he/she that ran into you. In a claim, the carrier will check out the systems. They are looking for anyway out of the claim. Hit a small import or subcompact with a GMC MH and there is going to be major damage.
jim galbavy
'73 x-CL ANNIE
Lake Mary, FL
|
This sort of gets to the bottom of any modifications. If you trust the safety of your family for what you did, then you should be prepared to explain the validity of that mod to your insurance company. If not, you probably took a chance and lost big time. I will not modify my brake system no matter how attractive the benefits may seem on the surface. Validation of a braking system under all possible circumstances is not what an individual can do. I'm not a purist by any means when it comes to modifications, but be prepared to defend yourself.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244184 is a reply to message #244090] |
Tue, 18 March 2014 19:21 |
mikethebike
Messages: 331
Registered: January 2014
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I might do the trailing arm at some point in the future, but with rebuilt transmission, wheels, tires, kitchen, refer, flooring, transmission cooler, dual/remote oil filters and new S./S lines, buddy seat, fuel lines...did I leave out anything???? I'll need to wait for the 'traction/reaction' arms!!
| A Hamilto wrote on Tue, 18 March 2014 10:13 |
| mikethebike wrote on Tue, 18 March 2014 09:44 |
I'm not touching the brakes on the GMC as far as modification....I LIKE my parking brake. ...
Product liability has nothing to do with it.
|
You can have a reaction arm without losing the parking brake.
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1285
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244217 is a reply to message #244184] |
Wed, 19 March 2014 02:43 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
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here are a few :>)
http://gmcmotorhome.info/list.html
erf
On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 5:21 PM, mike foster <mafoster1@bellsouth.net>wrote:
>
>
> I might do the trailing arm at some point in the future, but with rebuilt
> transmission, wheels, tires, kitchen, refer, flooring, transmission cooler,
> dual/remote oil filters and new S./S lines, buddy seat, fuel lines...did I
> leave out anything???? I'll need to wait for the 'traction/reaction' arms!!
>
> A Hamilto wrote on Tue, 18 March 2014 10:13
> > mikethebike wrote on Tue, 18 March 2014 09:44
> > > I'm not touching the brakes on the GMC as far as modification....I
> LIKE my parking brake. ...
> > >
> > > Product liability has nothing to do with it.
> > You can have a reaction arm without losing the parking brake.
> >
> > http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1285
>
>
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--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
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Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244249 is a reply to message #244080] |
Wed, 19 March 2014 09:50 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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Les, I liked what you said and was agreeing enthusiastically!
| Les Burt wrote on Tue, 18 March 2014 09:23 |
Thanks Keith,
I totally agree, I just worded my comments poorly.
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
On Mar 17, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Keith V <my427v8@hotmail.com> wrote:
Les Burt wrote on Mon, 17 March 2014 16:14
> snip----
>
> what is better, rear-ending someone in a panic stop because your stock brakes were barely sufficient, then being determined as responsible because the expert claimed you were following too close?
> OR,
> Having someone rear-end you because your coach stopped in time to avoid the car in front of you? Then having your damage claim refused because of evidence of modified brakes?
>
> snip---
I personally would much rather be the driver that got rear ended than the one that did the rear ending.
There is no way it's better to hit someone...ever
--
Keith
69 Vette
29 Dodge
75 Royale GMC
Mounds View. MN
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244256 is a reply to message #243716] |
Wed, 19 March 2014 10:33 |
Owen
Messages: 44
Registered: January 2008
Location: KS
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It seems to me that several important liability questions are being ignored here:
1) What if some component of your modified brake system fails and causes or contributes to an accident?
2) What if improper installation or adjustment of your modified brake system causes or contributes to an accident?
3) What if your modified brake system functions perfectly, but it still isn't good enough to save you from some idiot that comes out of nowhere, swerves in front of you, and hammers the brakes? Will you have to prove that the stock brakes wouldn't have saved you from the accident?
Personally I am always in favor of improved brakes, but I don't think these questions can be just dismissed.
Owen
http://instantlobster.com/uv500
Owen in KS
1969 UltraVan #500
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244265 is a reply to message #244256] |
Wed, 19 March 2014 11:21 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Well, I have a comment on the plus side of this discussion. A few weeks ago
I got a phone call from a customer that I installed a 6 wheel disc brake
system for. He was driving in Portland, Oregon moderately heavy traffic at
freeway speeds with his GMC when some idiot pranged the guard rail and spun
to a stop crosswise in traffic. All traffic immediately took all kinds of
evasive action, swerving into lanes occupied by other vehicles, full battle
rattle emergency lockup braking, etc. Well, my customer in his GMC with 6
wheel disc brakes, P-30 MC, all disc distribution valve, cadillac rear
calipers with cable e brakes, jumped on the whoa pedal, and just stopped
safely without hitting anything. Only damage was slightly soiled underwear.
After he stopped shaking and got to a stopping point, he called me to
discuss how well his coach had done, and to thank me for the upgrades. He
said that with the stock braking system, he knows without doubt that he
would have had a different hood ornament on his GMC. I know all the
arguments for keeping the old girls stock, but these braking systems are
night and day improvement over the stock drum brakes. Plus there is an
added bonus, just a quick glance will tell you the condition of the pads
and rotors. When is the last time you removed your rear drums and checked
how much brake lining you had left? Just my take on it. Add the reaction
arm system and you better nail everything inside your coach down, because
it is just that much better. Your opinions will vary on this and I applaud
them and welcome them. Just do not defend OEM systems for their
superiority, because that clearly are not.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 8:33 AM, Owen Strawn <owenstrawn@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> It seems to me that several important liability questions are being
> ignored here:
>
> 1) What if some component of your modified brake system fails and causes
> or contributes to an accident?
>
> 2) What if improper installation or adjustment of your modified brake
> system causes or contributes to an accident?
>
> 3) What if your modified brake system functions perfectly, but it still
> isn't good enough to save you from some idiot that comes out of nowhere,
> swerves in front of you, and hammers the brakes? Will you have to prove
> that the stock brakes wouldn't have saved you from the accident?
>
> Personally I am always in favor of improved brakes, but I don't think
> these questions can be just dismissed.
>
> Owen
> http://instantlobster.com/uv500
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244298 is a reply to message #244265] |
Wed, 19 March 2014 18:18 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Jim,
I agree with what you've noted below.
Double Trouble has 80mm calipers on the front, 60 mm Caddy calipers on the middle wheels, and new OEM drums on the rear all with
carbon metallic pads. It also has a P-30, brass combination valve, stainless steel brake lines, stainless steel flex lines,
sensitized booster and it stops REAL GOOD too!
I am an extremely defensive driver from the lessons I've learned by riding motorcycles for 50 years.
I am of the opinion that the situation you describe below could have minimized or maybe even prevented by following the rule we were
taught back when we got our driving licenses in the Stone Age; leave one car length for each 10 mph you're traveling. When some one
pulls into my "safety zone" I slow down and reestablish that distance. I may not meet that requirement 100% of the time but I have
never run into a situation like the one below.
When I approach an on ramp on a freeway I move out of the right lane (learned that from watching truckers) to avoid some idiot
towing a loooong trailer full of rolled up hay bales flying down the ramp and never even looking to see if anyone was in the right
lane!
I agree there is very little one can do to prevent colliding with some idiot that runs a stop sign, a red light, or just comes out
of "nowhere." In those situations the reaction arm system rules.
I was talking to Manny about his reaction arm system when he was first developing it and HE agreed with me that it wouldn't do much
unless you were in a panic stop situation.
I will make one comment about the legal aspects of modifying the brakes which is not relevant to the USA as I live in Australia.
Here ANY modification to the brakes of a vehicle would have to be certified by an engineer approved and certified to do so. If the
accident was investigated and it was discovered that you had modified your brakes without that certification your liability
insurance (issued by the state government) would be canceled.
To those of you who say; "how would they be able to tell?" I'd like to point out that most of the rear brake systems that convert
from drums to disks are made with flat plate steel brackets, one look at those parts and an automotive engineer would KNOW in an
instant that Detroit never made caliper mounts that looked like that. The only one that you could possibly get away with would be
the OEM Caddy setup.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: James Hupy
Well, I have a comment on the plus side of this discussion. A few weeks ago
I got a phone call from a customer that I installed a 6 wheel disc brake
system for. He was driving in Portland, Oregon moderately heavy traffic at
freeway speeds with his GMC when some idiot pranged the guard rail and spun
to a stop crosswise in traffic. All traffic immediately took all kinds of
evasive action, swerving into lanes occupied by other vehicles, full battle
rattle emergency lockup braking, etc. Well, my customer in his GMC with 6
wheel disc brakes, P-30 MC, all disc distribution valve, cadillac rear
calipers with cable e brakes, jumped on the whoa pedal, and just stopped
safely without hitting anything. Only damage was slightly soiled underwear.
After he stopped shaking and got to a stopping point, he called me to
discuss how well his coach had done, and to thank me for the upgrades. He
said that with the stock braking system, he knows without doubt that he
would have had a different hood ornament on his GMC. I know all the
arguments for keeping the old girls stock, but these braking systems are
night and day improvement over the stock drum brakes. Plus there is an
added bonus, just a quick glance will tell you the condition of the pads
and rotors. When is the last time you removed your rear drums and checked
how much brake lining you had left? Just my take on it. Add the reaction
arm system and you better nail everything inside your coach down, because
it is just that much better. Your opinions will vary on this and I applaud
them and welcome them. Just do not defend OEM systems for their
superiority, because that clearly are not.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244426 is a reply to message #244256] |
Thu, 20 March 2014 14:37 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Good to see someone else kill a thread when bringing up lagit, reasonable logic when looking at some of the things folks here on the net tell others to do.
Scott, I'm still being a duck here, safety is a big deal, ask GM or Toyota. Original brakes are not marginally sufficient as someone put it, original maintained and adjusted bone stock brakes will put you into the windshield-- if yours won't go get them fixed.
If you wanna do something different, you have been informed. If you have to change something, change your oil...
Jim Bounds
----------
________________________________
From: Owen Strawn <owenstrawn@yahoo.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH
It seems to me that several important liability questions are being ignored here:
1) What if some component of your modified brake system fails and causes or contributes to an accident?
2) What if improper installation or adjustment of your modified brake system causes or contributes to an accident?
3) What if your modified brake system functions perfectly, but it still isn't good enough to save you from some idiot that comes out of nowhere, swerves in front of you, and hammers the brakes? Will you have to prove that the stock brakes wouldn't have saved you from the accident?
Personally I am always in favor of improved brakes, but I don't think these questions can be just dismissed.
Owen
http://instantlobster.com/uv500
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244441 is a reply to message #243842] |
Thu, 20 March 2014 16:51 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Yes, I had checked with my carrier, which was Progressive at the time, when I was planning to install disk beaks on the rear. Someone had raised the same fear that you have so before I did it I called my insurer and told them that I wanted to upgrade my motorhome by installing 80mm calipers on the front and disk breaks on the rear. They asked if the parts I was using were in use by any modern vehicles and I told them what Chevy trucks used these calipers and rear disks and they told me that they didn't have a problem with it and it sounded safer than the ones that were on it right now. I specifically asked that if I had a collision would there be any problem with my use of the modified brakes. I was told that the collision insurance for liability was not really for the motorhome it was to cover me as the owner and driver and that even if the brakes failed there would not be a problem with my liability coverage.
Emery Stora
OnMar 16, 2014, at 6:35 PM, Jim Galbavy <j.galbavy@att.net> wrote
>
>
> A question like: "Were disk brakes an option on these motorhomes"? or "Why does this GMC has disks and that one doesn't"? ....and before you say: "Wouldn't happen". ... I think it has already. Just asking, has anybody checked with a carrier about something like this?
>
> jim galbavy
> '73 x-CL ANNIE
> Lake Mary, FL
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH [message #244478 is a reply to message #244426] |
Thu, 20 March 2014 19:43 |
mikethebike
Messages: 331
Registered: January 2014
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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If you want to experience MARGINAL brakes...ride a 1958 Harley-Davidson XLCH Sportster!!!!
Fred Flintstone could stop better.
| Jim Bounds wrote on Thu, 20 March 2014 14:37 |
Original brakes are not marginally sufficient as someone put it, original maintained and adjusted bone stock brakes will put you into the windshield-- if yours won't go get them fixed.
If you wanna do something different, you have been informed. If you have to change something, change your oil...
Jim Bounds
----------
________________________________
From: Owen Strawn <owenstrawn@yahoo.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Supplemental brake systems, kenH
It seems to me that several important liability questions are being ignored here:
1) What if some component of your modified brake system fails and causes or contributes to an accident?
2) What if improper installation or adjustment of your modified brake system causes or contributes to an accident?
3) What if your modified brake system functions perfectly, but it still isn't good enough to save you from some idiot that comes out of nowhere, swerves in front of you, and hammers the brakes? Will you have to prove that the stock brakes wouldn't have saved you from the accident?
Personally I am always in favor of improved brakes, but I don't think these questions can be just dismissed.
Owen
http://instantlobster.com/uv500
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[Updated on: Thu, 20 March 2014 19:44] Report message to a moderator |
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