Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section
| Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115016 is a reply to message #115011] |
Mon, 14 February 2011 21:10   |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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multi piston calipers are sexy, but it's hard to get piston area in them. If you are not racing, a single piston provides the cheapest lightest most reliable solution.
I like Wilwood. I've sold them since '05 for C3 Corvettes, but for a machine like a GMC the OEM single piston is hard to beat.
As a Wilwood Rep once told me. A caliper is just a clamp. Bigger pistons clamp better.
I do like to Prop valve, but I'd have to see the cost. There are already some low cost adjustables out there...
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115035 is a reply to message #115015] |
Mon, 14 February 2011 23:00 |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Mon, 14 February 2011 22:04 |
Larry,
Who makes that caliper?
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
--
Larry
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Rob
The disks on my coach are 1 of 2 that Leigh Harrison designed. The calipers are 4 piston from 1957-58 Eldorado front wheels. They are clamping a 12" 1980 Dodge pickup disk. It requires a lot of machining to fit on hubs. The calipers are very rare and the pads I had custom made with heavy duty friction material. I would not recommend. To get my calpers rebuilt I had to send them to the rebuilder because no cores could be found anywhere.
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115040 is a reply to message #115035] |
Mon, 14 February 2011 23:36 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Larry,
Thanks!
I just went to Leigh's website and at $1500 per axle, I think I'll live with
the Caddy calipers!
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry and Cheryl Dilk
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 4:01 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section
Rob
The disks on my coach are 1 of 2 that Leigh Harrison designed. The calipers
are 4 piston from 1957-58 Eldorado front wheels. They are clamping a 12"
1980 Dodge pickup disk. It requires a lot of machining to fit on hubs. The
calipers are very rare and the pads I had custom made with heavy duty
friction material. I would not recommend. To get my calpers rebuilt I had to
send them to the rebuilder because no cores could be found anywhere.
--
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115056 is a reply to message #115014] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 07:43 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Mon, 14 February 2011 21:03 |
Ken,
However, I do believe that multiple smaller pistons are better than one big
one. I'm sure I've read why that is somewhere but CRS strikes again!
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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it may be that the dual piston can use a larger area pad but it has been shown that that doesn't provide better braking just better pad wear.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115059 is a reply to message #115057] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 08:29 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
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Four 1.25" diameter pistons would have the EXACT
same area as ONE 2.5" diameter piston.
If you cut the diameter by 1/2, you cut the area
to 1/4 of the original.
The four 1" pistons would have a 56.25% advantage
over a single 2" diameter piston.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 00:52:50 +1100
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section
>
> Fred,
>
> I figger'd it out! As noted I was thinking about Harleys and the single
> pistons in their calipers were about 2 maybe 2.5 inches in diameter.
>
> I used to replace them with Performance Machine calipers that had four 1.25
> inch pistons which resulted in much larger piston area.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of fred veenschoten
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:43 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section
>
> it may be that the dual piston can use a larger area pad but it has been
> shown that that doesn't provide better braking just better pad wear.
>
> --
> Fred V
> '77 Royale RB 455
> P'cola, Fl
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| [GMCnet] TYPO CORRECTION Re: Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115060 is a reply to message #115059] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 08:34 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
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I entered the incorrect diameter for the
four-piston system. Correct info follows.
Please delete my original.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
----------------------------------------
Four 1.25" diameter pistons would have the EXACT
same area as ONE 2.5" diameter piston.
If you cut the diameter by 1/2, you cut the area
to 1/4 of the original.
The four 1.25" pistons would have a 56.25% advantage
over a single 2" diameter piston.
> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 00:52:50 +1100
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section
>
> Fred,
>
> I figger'd it out! As noted I was thinking about Harleys and the single
> pistons in their calipers were about 2 maybe 2.5 inches in diameter.
>
> I used to replace them with Performance Machine calipers that had four 1.25
> inch pistons which resulted in much larger piston area.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> > [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of fred veenschoten
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:43 AM
> > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section
> >
> > it may be that the dual piston can use a larger area pad but it has been
> > shown that that doesn't provide better braking just better pad wear.
> >
> > --
> > Fred V
> > '77 Royale RB 455
> > P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115061 is a reply to message #115057] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 08:38 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
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really interesting discussion, should move it to it's own topic?
gene
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Fred,
>
> I figger'd it out! As noted I was thinking about Harleys and the single
> pistons in their calipers were about 2 maybe 2.5 inches in diameter.
>
> I used to replace them with Performance Machine calipers that had four 1.25
> inch pistons which resulted in much larger piston area.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of fred veenschoten
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:43 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section
>
> it may be that the dual piston can use a larger area pad but it has been
> shown that that doesn't provide better braking just better pad wear.
>
> --
> Fred V
> '77 Royale RB 455
> P'cola, Fl
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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> _______________________________________________
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--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
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Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115066 is a reply to message #115059] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 08:50 |
 |
mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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| k2gkk wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 06:29 |
...The four 1" pistons would have a 56.25% advantage
over a single 2" diameter piston.
|
How much is reliability effected by multi-piston calipers?
Seems four pistons would have four times the possibility of something going wrong.
But then you need to add in the extra hardware needed for a single piston caliper to work. (Floating calipers vs fixed calipers.)
Maybe the most reliable caliper would be a fixed double piston caliper.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115082 is a reply to message #115066] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 10:55 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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| mike miller wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:50 |
| k2gkk wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 06:29 |
...The four 1" pistons would have a 56.25% advantage
over a single 2" diameter piston.
|
How much is reliability effected by multi-piston calipers?
Seems four pistons would have four times the possibility of something going wrong.
But then you need to add in the extra hardware needed for a single piston caliper to work. (Floating calipers vs fixed calipers.)
Maybe the most reliable caliper would be a fixed double piston caliper.
|
I'm not a reliability engineer, but it seems to me you'd ahve to measure the seal length, not just the diameter or number of seals.
Floating calipers are pretty darn reliable. I have 220,000 hard miles on the set on my van, never been touched.
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] TYPO CORRECTION Re: Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115084 is a reply to message #115060] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 11:00 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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| k2gkk wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:34 |
I entered the incorrect diameter for the
four-piston system. Correct info follows.
Please delete my original.
----------------------------------------
Four 1.25" diameter pistons would have the EXACT
same area as ONE 2.5" diameter piston.
If you cut the diameter by 1/2, you cut the area
to 1/4 of the original.
The four 1.25" pistons would have a 56.25% advantage
over a single 2" diameter piston.
|
Are all 4 pistons on the same side of the caliper?
If so your math is correct.
If there are two pistons on each side of a fixed caliper you only can count 2 pistons, for an equivalent area of 2.44inches...Not an advantage
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] TYPO CORRECTION Re: Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115096 is a reply to message #115085] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 12:56 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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| k2gkk wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 11:06 |
I'm talking strictly about the area of the pistons.
Whether pistons are on one or two sides of the disk
is irrelevant. We have to assume an identical
configuration to compare one piston to four pistons.
|
Actually is is relevant.
when you calculate piston area on a single sided floating caliper you use the total area of the pistons, which are all on one side.
when you calculate the piston area of a double sided fixed caliper, you only count the pistons on one side.
Here's one reference;
Look down at the termsNote that multi piston calipers express their values in using one HALF of the caliper body only. This accounts for the floating aspect of the single pot caliper...
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/bias-calculator/
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] TYPO CORRECTION Re: Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115104 is a reply to message #115096] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 14:27 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Keith,
I do not contest what you have noted below or the website, however, I am
REALLY confused now!
I ga-ron-tee you that changing the front caliper on a Harley from a single
large piston type to a four piston type improved the stopping power
DRAMATICALLY!
The pad area was pretty close.
I must apologize; I can't provide any measurements as the stock single
piston caliper on my 1988 Heritage Softail are long gone.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Keith V
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 5:57 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] TYPO CORRECTION Re: Combination Valve Cross Section
Actually is is relevant.
when you calculate piston area on a single sided floating caliper you use
the total area of the pistons, which are all on one side.
when you calculate the piston area of a double sided fixed caliper, you only
count the pistons on one side.
Here's one reference;
Look down at the termsNote that multi piston calipers express their values
in using one HALF of the caliper body only. This accounts for the floating
aspect of the single pot caliper...
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/bias-calculator/
--
Keith
69 Vette
29 Dodge
75 Royale GMC
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] TYPO CORRECTION Re: Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115117 is a reply to message #115104] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 15:49 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 14:27 |
Keith,
I do not contest what you have noted below or the website, however, I am
REALLY confused now!
I ga-ron-tee you that changing the front caliper on a Harley from a single
large piston type to a four piston type improved the stopping power
DRAMATICALLY!
The pad area was pretty close.
I must apologize; I can't provide any measurements as the stock single
piston caliper on my 1988 Heritage Softail are long gone.
|
Brakes are really confusing.
the 4 piston calipers you put on the Harley probably did have more piston area. I just want to be sure the calculations were done correctly !
I've seen SO many people do a brake update and put on new wheels and tires, then compare 60mph stopping distances and SWEAR that it was the brakes that did it, when the reality is they went from slippery car tires to sticky race tires...
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] TYPO CORRECTION Re: Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115130 is a reply to message #115117] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 16:31 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Keith V wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 15:49 |
Brakes are really confusing.
I've seen SO many people do a brake update and put on new wheels and tires, then compare 60mph stopping distances and SWEAR that it was the brakes that did it, when the reality is they went from slippery car tires to sticky race tires...
|
Thus the reason to only do one change at a time if an individual evaluation of each change is desired.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115139 is a reply to message #115040] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 18:15 |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 00:36 |
Larry,
Thanks!
I just went to Leigh's website and at $1500 per axle, I think I'll live with
the Caddy calipers!
Regards,
Rob M.
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 4:01 PM
Rob
My PO bought these brakes from Leigh many years ago and Leigh only did 2 coaches and then went to a easier to accomplish system. I will keep them and maybe some day afford the brake system from Jim K.
_______________________________________________
|
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
|
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combination Valve Cross Section [message #115140 is a reply to message #115139] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 18:16 |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Karma: 0
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| GMCNUSA wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 19:15 |
| Robert Mueller wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 00:36 |
Larry,
Thanks!
I just went to Leigh's website and at $1500 per axle, I think I'll live with
the Caddy calipers!
Regards,
Rob M.
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 4:01 PM
|
|
Rob,
My PO bought these brakes from Leigh many years ago and Leigh only did 2 coaches and then went to a easier to accomplish system. I will keep them and maybe some day afford the brake system from Jim K.
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
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