Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Why not
| [GMCnet] Why not [message #100243] |
Sat, 18 September 2010 12:58  |
Steve Phillips
Messages: 63
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Hi All
Just wondering why not do away with the hassle of using the
compressors and all the leaking lines and valves?
I think that putting a bicycle type air valve up close to the bag would
be just a easy as valves and lines. It seems I am always messing with
lines and connections and compressors . Bad or Good Idea.?????
Steve
78 Birch
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100264 is a reply to message #100243] |
Sat, 18 September 2010 14:25  |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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I would never consider abandoning the leveling system. It took me one season to
get mine working perfect and I can't imagine being without it. When the coach
is loaded different or when you have a trailer connected, it auto corrects the
level, in camp-sites I always use it to level the coach.
The system is not really that complex, if a person goes through it piece by
piece and sure there are no leaks and all valves and pumps are working
correctly, it's one of the best features the GMC has in my opinion.
Ray
Ray & Lisa Erspamer
78 Royale Center Kitchen
TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
________________________________
From: steve <mr34@pipeline.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sat, September 18, 2010 12:58:17 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] Why not
Hi All
Just wondering why not do away with the hassle of using the
compressors and all the leaking lines and valves?
I think that putting a bicycle type air valve up close to the bag would
be just a easy as valves and lines. It seems I am always messing with
lines and connections and compressors . Bad or Good Idea.?????
Steve
78 Birch
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100268 is a reply to message #100248] |
Sat, 18 September 2010 14:35 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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A few people do that by simply screwing a schrader valve into the bag. It works and I carry schraders just in case I would ever need them, but...
The air leveling system is constantly adjusting for load and road conditions. A 1/4 inch difference on one rear side makes a 150 load shift on the front wheels. I have seen people do this and show me that their fenders are level on the outside. Then they climb in the coach to drive it and the coach drops 3/8 to 1/2 inch.
I'll stay with the original dynamically adjusting system.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100937 is a reply to message #100243] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 06:43 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
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Just wondering why not do away with the hassle of using the
compressors and all the leaking lines and valves?
____________________________________________________
I have had this thought as well.
All though the OEM system has its purposes, to keep the coach at a "SET" level, ( distance from the road, not self leveling due to road crown or campground slope ), it also allows alternative settings. You can raise the back end when entering a campground with not so flat roads or backing into a slot. As mentioned, you can level the coach to some degree when parked.
In my case, I am still fighting leaks, have since I bought her. My PO cut tubes and spliced connectors EVERYWHERE, and they leak according to weather.
I have taken the Quad airbag manifold apart a couple times to fix leaks but I still start to sag in a couple days if I dont isolate the airbags.
My levelers work in travel mode on occasion. This I attribute to the cheapness of the leveler valve construction, the arm can slip off the body, only friction holds it on. When this happens, that side goes down.
I have come a long way in regards to the leaks and trying to get the system going. The levelers are new and the leaks are chased every year. When it gets cold, the leaks go from very slow leaks to fast leaks, it is all temperature intensive. In the Spring when it warms up, most of them seal up again, but not all.
Using a fixed airbag is being talked about, the medium is part of the issue but you lose the ability to raise and lower the coach at the campsite. It would be much like a car with its fixed position. That could be a great loss if you use that option.....
But the fact is the medium to make it a fixed system is not yet found so even if you want to make it fixed, there is nothing recommended to accomplish this task. The medium needs to be spongy so the airbag can still react to bumps and such as it would with air.
There are pluses and minis's to everything, Many things can be done, but you have to ask yourself, " SELF, do I really Want to make this change and what will the result be? "
Gatsbys' CRUISER  08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
_
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100942 is a reply to message #100937] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 07:56 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Your problem might be at the dash on your 74,
Also use DOT rated fittings as they wil work easier and better results.
On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 4:43 AM, Larry <slawrence111@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Just wondering why not do away with the hassle of using the
> compressors and all the leaking lines and valves?
> ____________________________________________________
>
> I have had this thought as well.
>
> All though the OEM system has its purposes, to keep the coach at a "SET" level, ( distance from the road, not self leveling due to road crown or campground slope ), it also allows alternative settings. You can raise the back end when entering a campground with not so flat roads or backing into a slot. As mentioned, you can level the coach to some degree when parked.
>
> In my case, I am still fighting leaks, have since I bought her. My PO cut tubes and spliced connectors EVERYWHERE, and they leak according to weather.
>
> I have taken the Quad airbag manifold apart a couple times to fix leaks but I still start to sag in a couple days if I dont isolate the airbags.
> My levelers work in travel mode on occasion. This I attribute to the cheapness of the leveler valve construction, the arm can slip off the body, only friction holds it on. When this happens, that side goes down.
>
> I have come a long way in regards to the leaks and trying to get the system going. The levelers are new and the leaks are chased every year. When it gets cold, the leaks go from very slow leaks to fast leaks, it is all temperature intensive. In the Spring when it warms up, most of them seal up again, but not all.
>
> Using a fixed airbag is being talked about, the medium is part of the issue but you lose the ability to raise and lower the coach at the campsite. It would be much like a car with its fixed position. That could be a great loss if you use that option.....
>
> But the fact is the medium to make it a fixed system is not yet found so even if you want to make it fixed, there is nothing recommended to accomplish this task. The medium needs to be spongy so the airbag can still react to bumps and such as it would with air.
>
> There are pluses and minis's to everything, Many things can be done, but you have to ask yourself, " SELF, do I really Want to make this change and what will the result be? "
> --
> Gatsbys' CRUISER :d
> 74 GLACIER X, 260
> 455/APC/4 bagg'r(ver3)
> Remflex Manifold gaskets
> _______________________________________________
> Purchased 08-18-04
>
> _
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100953 is a reply to message #100937] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 10:03 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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The EL II is a result of a process of modification and change by GMC to
solve some of the issues with a complex system of compressor, tank, lengthy
air hoses, and leveling valves, all of them with connections that over time
will leak air from the system. When it is fresh, it works extremely well. It
has it's own unique set of problems, but far fewer air connections, and no
rotary air valves. When it is combined with the Quadra bags, it represents
about the best that one could hope for as far as reliability. My Royale, a
1978 EL II, just had a small pair of manual shut off valves in the supply
lines to the bags. When these were closed, the bags would hold at that
height for months at a time, but they eliminated the reactive feature of the
suspension, which is to maintain ride height in response to changes in load.
All the controls in the EL II system are electrical, not
pneumatic. They can't leak air, but they can still fail electrically. The
more complex any system is, the more prone it is to component failure. If
you are the kind of person that buys a new Lexus and drive it 4 years and
trade it off for a new one, and never even open the hood except to show
off all the bells and whistles under there, then try to do the same thing
with your 35 year old GMC Motorhome, don't be surprised if your unrealistic
expectations reward you with a roadside breakdown from time to time. On the
other hand, if you like to get under there and see what makes it tick, you
can stay on top of this very maintenence intensive vehicle. My two cents
worth for today.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Royale 403
On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 4:43 AM, Larry <slawrence111@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Just wondering why not do away with the hassle of using the
> compressors and all the leaking lines and valves?
> ____________________________________________________
>
> I have had this thought as well.
>
> All though the OEM system has its purposes, to keep the coach at a "SET"
> level, ( distance from the road, not self leveling due to road crown or
> campground slope ), it also allows alternative settings. You can raise the
> back end when entering a campground with not so flat roads or backing into a
> slot. As mentioned, you can level the coach to some degree when parked.
>
> In my case, I am still fighting leaks, have since I bought her. My PO cut
> tubes and spliced connectors EVERYWHERE, and they leak according to weather.
>
> I have taken the Quad airbag manifold apart a couple times to fix leaks but
> I still start to sag in a couple days if I dont isolate the airbags.
> My levelers work in travel mode on occasion. This I attribute to the
> cheapness of the leveler valve construction, the arm can slip off the body,
> only friction holds it on. When this happens, that side goes down.
>
> I have come a long way in regards to the leaks and trying to get the system
> going. The levelers are new and the leaks are chased every year. When it
> gets cold, the leaks go from very slow leaks to fast leaks, it is all
> temperature intensive. In the Spring when it warms up, most of them seal up
> again, but not all.
>
> Using a fixed airbag is being talked about, the medium is part of the issue
> but you lose the ability to raise and lower the coach at the campsite. It
> would be much like a car with its fixed position. That could be a great
> loss if you use that option.....
>
> But the fact is the medium to make it a fixed system is not yet found so
> even if you want to make it fixed, there is nothing recommended to
> accomplish this task. The medium needs to be spongy so the airbag can still
> react to bumps and such as it would with air.
>
> There are pluses and minis's to everything, Many things can be done, but
> you have to ask yourself, " SELF, do I really Want to make this change and
> what will the result be? "
> --
> Gatsbys' CRUISER :d
> 74 GLACIER X, 260
> 455/APC/4 bagg'r(ver3)
> Remflex Manifold gaskets
> _______________________________________________
> Purchased 08-18-04
>
> _
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100957 is a reply to message #100953] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 10:39 |
 |
mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| James Hupy wrote on Sat, 25 September 2010 08:03 |
The EL II is a result of a process of modification and change by GMC to
solve some of the issues with a complex system of compressor, tank, lengthy
air hoses, and leveling valves, ....
|
Here is a web site with instructions to use GM Junkyard parts to create a system close to the EL2.
<http://www.mumert.com/el2000.htm>
It seems to me that it wouldn't be THAT hard to create a system using the two pumps, four to six solenoids, two relays and MODERN electronics. With better height sensors, you should be able to have manual _plus_ multiple settings (from low to high) highway, town, rough road and max clearance.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100962 is a reply to message #100957] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 11:17 |
Don A
Messages: 895
Registered: October 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<<<<<<Here is a web site with instructions to use GM Junkyard parts to create a system close to the EL2.
<http://www.mumert.com/el2000.htm>>>>>>
great site!! Whose would be that GMC with the rainbow stripe down the middle and the great storage bays from the outside including some with vertical opening doors like a bus? Sure would like some more info on those mods.
Don Adams Dallas, TX
'76 26' Glenbrook, '90 Sidekick
rebuilt by R Archer, powered by J Bounds, Koba
[IMG]http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6109/G2.jpg[/IMG]
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100967 is a reply to message #100957] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 13:06 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Mike, It can be done, and others have done some work in this area as well.
The changing layout of the different coaches makes almost each change unique
to the particular coach being updated. Probably a good idea to do a lot of
comparison and measuring before undertaking the modifications. The ride
height sensors are subject to failure of the led's and phototransistors and
because they are molded in epoxy, are almost impossible to repair. If
someone wanted to bite the bullet like the guy in Lincoln City that makes
the Dinosaur circuit boards for the furnaces and water heaters, to create a
replacement board using more modern electronics, it would sure be nice. Junk
yard stuff is just that, junk of unknown quality until you buy it and test
it. Also personal preferences apply here. Some people just replace all the
hoses, valves, sensors, tanks, compressors with shrader valves in the end of
the air bag and use their coaches like that and enjoy the heck out of them.
Some guys want the most high tech system that they can put in their coaches.
I don't think either approach is all wrong, after this is still America,
land of free choice. Step up to the bar, pay your money, take your choice,
live with the results.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Royale 403
On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Mike Miller <m000035@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> James Hupy wrote on Sat, 25 September 2010 08:03
> > The EL II is a result of a process of modification and change by GMC to
> > solve some of the issues with a complex system of compressor, tank,
> lengthy
> > air hoses, and leveling valves, ....
>
>
> Here is a web site with instructions to use GM Junkyard parts to create a
> system close to the EL2.
>
> <http://www.mumert.com/el2000.htm>
>
> It seems to me that it wouldn't be THAT hard to create a system using the
> two pumps, four to six solenoids, two relays and MODERN electronics. With
> better height sensors, you should be able to have manual _plus_ multiple
> settings (from low to high) highway, town, rough road and max clearance.
> --
> Mike Miller
> `73 26' X Painted D.
> `78 23' Birchaven
> Hillsboro, OR
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100973 is a reply to message #100967] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 14:24 |
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jaholland
Messages: 565
Registered: June 2010
Location: Sweet Home Alebamy
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I like the GMC air systen and, when working properly, the coach is a joy to drive.
i have also installed the Schraeder valve / cut off system on each side
and use it when I park the motorhome for 20 days or more ~
~ Joe ~
/_]*[__][] *[__|] ~ * '73 TZE063V101887 "
"
O----------OO--]* ~ '78 TZE168V100234 "
"
" Joe & Lavelle " "
"
'sweet home alebamy'
[Updated on: Sat, 25 September 2010 14:25] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100981 is a reply to message #100953] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 15:47 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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The more complex any system is, the more prone it is to component failure. If you are the kind of person that buys a new Lexus and drive it 4 years and trade it off for a new one, and never even open the hood except to show off all the bells and whistles under there, then try to do the same thing with your 35 year old GMC Motorhome, don't be surprised if your unrealistic expectations reward you with a roadside breakdown from time to time.
_________________________________________________-
but thanks for commenting.
Gatsbys' CRUISER 08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
_
[Updated on: Sat, 25 September 2010 21:23] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100982 is a reply to message #100957] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 15:52 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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It seems to me that it wouldn't be THAT hard to create a system using the two pumps, four to six solenoids, two relays and MODERN electronics. With better height sensors, you should be able to have manual _plus_ multiple settings (from low to high) highway, town, rough road and max clearance.
____________________________________________________
I agree.
I have a project diagram and wiring for changing over to a solenoid based system with electrical sensors at the rear wheels.
Time prevents be from attacking this one head on just yet and I still need to fine tune the elec sensors to a simple operation. The simpler it is, the less chance of it failing, I think...
I am in full agreement that the nice new OEM systems had to work wonderfully... but with the addition of a dozen or so extra fittings, ( PO ), it gets tougher to find.
But, there is always next year.......................
Gatsbys' CRUISER 08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
_
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100983 is a reply to message #100981] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 16:09 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Larry, I meant to offend no one in particular, and only served to illustrate
the point that I was trying to make, that being that the GMC owners are a
very diverse group of individuals with different tastes and needs and what
works for some does not work for all of us. Please don't take offense, I
assure you that none was intended. I believe that my point was that complex
systems are more prone to failure than simple ones are, assuming that the
stresses are similar. I used the Lexus as an example of a modern automobile
that wears a reputation (earned or not) of being very reliable and trouble
free. That was all I really meant by the comment.
On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Larry <slawrence111@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> The more complex any system is, the more prone it is to component failure.
> If you are the kind of person that buys a new Lexus and drive it 4 years and
> trade it off for a new one, and never even open the hood except to show off
> all the bells and whistles under there, then try to do the same thing with
> your 35 year old GMC Motorhome, don't be surprised if your unrealistic
> expectations reward you with a roadside breakdown from time to time.
> _________________________________________________-
>
> Really Mr Hupy, I've spent more time with the old girl than any of my other
> vehicles. If that comment was aimed at me, then you are the unrealistic
> one.
>
> but thanks for commenting.
>
> --
> Gatsbys' CRUISER :d
> 74 GLACIER X, 260
> 455/APC/4 bagg'r(ver3)
> Remflex Manifold gaskets
> _______________________________________________
> Purchased 08-18-04
>
> _
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100987 is a reply to message #100982] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 18:05 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Larry C wrote on Sat, 25 September 2010 15:52 |
It seems to me that it wouldn't be THAT hard to create a system using the two pumps, four to six solenoids, two relays and MODERN electronics. With better height sensors, you should be able to have manual _plus_ multiple settings (from low to high) highway, town, rough road and max clearance.
____________________________________________________
I agree.
I have a project diagram and wiring for changing over to a solenoid based system with electrical sensors at the rear wheels.
Time prevents be from attacking this one head on just yet and I still need to fine tune the elec sensors to a simple operation. The simpler it is, the less chance of it failing, I think...
I am in full agreement that the nice new OEM systems had to work wonderfully... but with the addition of a dozen or so extra fittings, ( PO ), it gets tougher to find.
But, there is always next year.......................
|
I am actually working on an open source controller for air suspension. It's called Megaride on Source Forge. It will use Cadillac, well any voltage based, sensor, and is designed to be simple, cheap and reliable. But the Cad sensors are a nice reliable non contact sensor that looks like a variable resister.
It is going to run on the MegaSquirt GPIO hardware and can control 4 corners, but just 2 corners would be simple.
I'm making it for my '29 dodge that has 4 corner air suspension. So it uses 8 relays, fill and dump for each corner, plus 1 for the compressor.
I've thought about if I would want to put it in the GMC, but my Power Level works perfectly, so why?
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #100999 is a reply to message #100983] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 21:32 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I regress sir.
I have removed the comment and deemed it improper.
I apologize and hope it will not cause ill feelings between you and I or any other GMCers.
Gatsbys' CRUISER 08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
_
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| Re: [GMCnet] Why not [message #101002 is a reply to message #100987] |
Sat, 25 September 2010 21:54 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I've thought about if I would want to put it in the GMC, but my Power Level works perfectly, so why?
____________________________________________________
Mine is working, so far and I support the vehicle when she will sit for more than a week. so I am hesitant to tear the system apart, especially if I create the new one, it would be experimental at best until proven. Just too many other things going on to jump on this one when it is working so so.
My design level controllers are basically the same idea using the strut from the bogie controller rods and the high low signals come from a magnet that moves across a magnetic reed relay ( magnetic ). The design has been advancing as I have studied it. The magnets trigger the relays which control the solenoids.
If the system fails completely, I may just replace all the tubing and get rid of all the extra fittings the PO had put in and, to me, are just another place for a leak to start. Hoping this might get it under control and hold air for "months" as some have proudly said they have accomplished.
The problem with the Magnet/magnetic reed relay is, Keeping it simple and tough enough to not be affected by dirt, mud or tires tearing apart is a large task to develop. I know the GMC engineers have their hands full when they come up with this stuff.
I am a strong believer in staying with an OEM design and I always remember this... " We can change anything but Should we make the change and what will be affected by that change?" The problem is we never know the result of a change until we actually do it. I can design many things and the operation is limited only to its design charactoristics but the true operation limitations will not be known until it is actually built. This also keeps me on my toes.
thanks for the comment.
Gatsbys' CRUISER 08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
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