Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] In tank fuel pumps, or external pumps.
| Re: [GMCnet] In tank fuel pumps, or external pumps. [message #316384 is a reply to message #316376] |
Fri, 21 April 2017 11:00   |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Belt AND suspenders, eh, Jim?
Mac Macdonald in OKC
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 21, 2017, at 09:36, Jim Kanomata wrote:
I take the stand that when the in tank pump goes out, the other inline pump
will work.
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:22 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>
> It is not a problem, IF you are in a shop with a hard floor WHEN the pump
> (s) fail and you need to drop the tanks. Carefully read the submission by
> Glen Gregory about fixing fuel pumps alongside a busy highway while semi's
> blow past at 70 per. Not a very safe way to spend an afternoon.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
>> On Apr 21, 2017 6:28 AM, "Larry" wrote:
>>
>> A lot of us have "been there" with different ways of plumbing fuel to the
>> engine. IMO, pumps in the tanks and all steel fuel lines is the final
>> answer. Two tanks, two pumps. Both pumps are a back-up for the other.
>> Either will allow you to drain...I'd guess...2/3rd s of the 50gal of fuel
>> you
>> can carry, meaning you can get'r home. JMHO
>>
>> As far as having access holes in the floor of your coach to change the
>> pumps, personally, I would not bother. If you put pumps in the tanks, as
>> outlined in the Stora article, because the assembled tank unit is fairly
>> big, (especially if you change to all steel lines) you need a lot of room
>> around the tank hole to manipulate the assembly when inserting it into
> the
>> tank. You'd have to have quite a large hole in the floor. I have a
> small
>> hole (6" in dia.) to check in case of leaks or electrical issues.
>> Dropping the tanks is not as big of a deal as made out to be. The hardest
>> part of
>> the whole thing is draining of the tanks and where to put all of that
>> fuel. Draining is actually relatively easy. Just hook a section of rubber
>> fuel
>> line to the line at the fuel rails, throttle body or a convenient spot in
>> the fuel lines, and wire the pump to pump the fuel out. I can drop both
>> tanks, fix and replace in a morning. .
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> --
>> Larry
>> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
>> Menomonie, WI.
>>
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] In tank fuel pumps, or external pumps. [message #316385 is a reply to message #316384] |
Fri, 21 April 2017 11:04 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Mac, I prefer to do my coach maintenance inside my well lighted and heated
shop, not alongside a 2 lane with trucks ripping by at warp speed. Just me,
I guess.
Jim Hupy
On Apr 21, 2017 9:01 AM, "D C _Mac_ Macdonald" wrote:
> Belt AND suspenders, eh, Jim?
>
> Mac Macdonald in OKC
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 21, 2017, at 09:36, Jim Kanomata wrote:
>
> I take the stand that when the in tank pump goes out, the other inline pump
> will work.
>
>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:22 AM, James Hupy
> wrote:
>>
>> It is not a problem, IF you are in a shop with a hard floor WHEN the pump
>> (s) fail and you need to drop the tanks. Carefully read the submission by
>> Glen Gregory about fixing fuel pumps alongside a busy highway while
> semi's
>> blow past at 70 per. Not a very safe way to spend an afternoon.
>> Jim Hupy
>> Salem, Or
>> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2017 6:28 AM, "Larry" wrote:
>>>
>>> A lot of us have "been there" with different ways of plumbing fuel to
> the
>>> engine. IMO, pumps in the tanks and all steel fuel lines is the final
>>> answer. Two tanks, two pumps. Both pumps are a back-up for the other.
>>> Either will allow you to drain...I'd guess...2/3rd s of the 50gal of
> fuel
>>> you
>>> can carry, meaning you can get'r home. JMHO
>>>
>>> As far as having access holes in the floor of your coach to change the
>>> pumps, personally, I would not bother. If you put pumps in the tanks, as
>>> outlined in the Stora article, because the assembled tank unit is fairly
>>> big, (especially if you change to all steel lines) you need a lot of
> room
>>> around the tank hole to manipulate the assembly when inserting it into
>> the
>>> tank. You'd have to have quite a large hole in the floor. I have a
>> small
>>> hole (6" in dia.) to check in case of leaks or electrical issues.
>>> Dropping the tanks is not as big of a deal as made out to be. The
> hardest
>>> part of
>>> the whole thing is draining of the tanks and where to put all of that
>>> fuel. Draining is actually relatively easy. Just hook a section of
> rubber
>>> fuel
>>> line to the line at the fuel rails, throttle body or a convenient spot
> in
>>> the fuel lines, and wire the pump to pump the fuel out. I can drop both
>>> tanks, fix and replace in a morning. .
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry
>>> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
>>> Menomonie, WI.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
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| Re: [GMCnet] In tank fuel pumps, or external pumps. [message #316390 is a reply to message #316360] |
Fri, 21 April 2017 13:10 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Ken Burton wrote on Thu, 20 April 2017 22:20How about using a cheap ethanol / gasoline separator. (I have never seen one.) That would bring the RVP back to what we had before this EPA madness. With the separator you could dump the excess ethanol in the exhaust just like the thermosan units, or you could mix it with water and put it in the black tank for later disposal.
We have guys at the airport doing this separation with water but it is a standalone operation. We have never found a use for the removed ethanol and water mixture, so it just gets dumped. I'm sure the EPA is not happy about that but they are the ones who caused the problem in the first place.
I dont know of any practical way to remove ETOH from gasoline since they are miscable. Water and gasonine are not, so they easily separate and stratify via surface tension and density.
In esoteric theory, I suppose you could heat it and the ETOH would vaporize first, but a number of the lighter elements in gassoline would as well.
The main advantages for in tank pumps is they run cooler, are quieter and protected more from damage at the cost of inaccessibility . particularly important for fuel injection and High pressure. I cant think of any OEM FI using external pump, but someone on here may.
That being said, if you are running carbed, I still think the Carter external as a booster with the mech pump is the way to go
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] In tank fuel pumps, or external pumps. [message #316391 is a reply to message #316375] |
Fri, 21 April 2017 13:24 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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James Hupy wrote on Fri, 21 April 2017 09:22
It is not a problem, IF you are in a shop with a hard floor WHEN the pump
(s) fail and you need to drop the tanks. Carefully read the submission by
Glen Gregory about fixing fuel pumps alongside a busy highway while semi's
blow past at 70 per. Not a very safe way to spend an afternoon.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
Oh, I read Glen's submission and fully agree with his assessment. That scene can be avoided with two tanks, two pumps. If one fails,, the dash switch puts you to the other tank/pump, and allows you to get to a safe place to work on it. The real issue is vapor lock, a condition that (in addition to other upgrades) can be significantly reduced by placing the pumps in the tanks. But then....it's just my relatively informed, off the cuff, back yard mechanic, gut level, eyeball it up and guestimate, opinion....that's all...
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: [GMCnet] In tank fuel pumps, or external pumps. [message #316394 is a reply to message #316390] |
Fri, 21 April 2017 13:31 |
Emery Stora
Messages: 959
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 4
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Chris
Actually, you can easily do it by just adding water to the gasoline. It will absorb the ethanol and then you can separate the water from the gasoline.
It is not very practicable for large amounts such as a motorhome tankful but some have done it for motorcycles and lawnmowers.
Here is an example:
http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14679
One problem is that it will also leach out other additives which are useful in gasoline.
Also, removing the ethanol will reduce the Octane so you can end up with very low octane gasoline which might ping a lot.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
> On Apr 21, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Chris Tyler wrote:
>
> Ken Burton wrote on Thu, 20 April 2017 22:20
>> How about using a cheap ethanol / gasoline separator. (I have never seen one.) That would bring the RVP back to what we had before this EPA
>> madness. With the separator you could dump the excess ethanol in the exhaust just like the thermosan units, or you could mix it with water and put
>> it in the black tank for later disposal.
>>
>> We have guys at the airport doing this separation with water but it is a standalone operation. We have never found a use for the removed ethanol
>> and water mixture, so it just gets dumped. I'm sure the EPA is not happy about that but they are the ones who caused the problem in the first
>> place.
>
>
> I dont know of any practical way to remove ETOH from gasoline since they are miscable. Water and gasonine are not, so they easily separate and
> stratify via surface tension and density.
> In esoteric theory, I suppose you could heat it and the ETOH would vaporize first, but a number of the lighter elements in gassoline would as well.
>
>
> The main advantages for in tank pumps is they run cooler, are quieter and protected more from damage at the cost of inaccessibility . particularly
> important for fuel injection and High pressure. I cant think of any OEM FI using external pump, but someone on here may.
>
> That being said, if you are running carbed, I still think the Carter external as a booster with the mech pump is the way to go
>
> --
> 76 Glenbrook
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] In tank fuel pumps, or external pumps. [message #316398 is a reply to message #316290] |
Fri, 21 April 2017 13:58 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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The advantage to two pumps imo is that if one fails, the other will get you to a safe place so you can work on it. I've been down lots of roads where there was no safe place to pull off so that's important to me.
I commented earlier about not going below 1/2 tank. IF I was concerned about vapor lock, I'd get gas at the half tank level just to keep putting cooler fuel in the tank. Not to mention, I'll want to pee every couple hundred miles anyway.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] In tank fuel pumps, or external pumps. [message #316410 is a reply to message #316390] |
Fri, 21 April 2017 15:15 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Chris,
Along with being miscible it's miserable and I wish it was miss-able!
:-D
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Tyler
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 1:10 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] In tank fuel pumps, or external pumps.
I dont know of any practical way to remove ETOH from gasoline since they are
miscable. Water and gasonine are not, so they easily separate and
stratify via surface tension and density.
In esoteric theory, I suppose you could heat it and the ETOH would vaporize
first, but a number of the lighter elements in gassoline would as well.
The main advantages for in tank pumps is they run cooler, are quieter and
protected more from damage at the cost of inaccessibility . particularly
important for fuel injection and High pressure. I cant think of any OEM FI
using external pump, but someone on here may.
That being said, if you are running carbed, I still think the Carter
external as a booster with the mech pump is the way to go
--
76 Glenbrook
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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