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Oil Pressure Woes [message #370312] Mon, 08 August 2022 07:30 Go to next message
traveler1980 is currently offline  traveler1980   United States
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Hi All - hoping the collective brain trust here can provide some thoughts on some oil pressure concerns I have with my coach. I have owned my coach for about 3 years and was told by the PO (and shown paperwork) that the engine had been replaced. The paperwork indeed showed an engine swap, but mentioned nothing about the actual engine being installed. PO said it was rebuilt. Here are some observations I've had with my oil pressure -

- Engine now has about 10,000 miles on it. I camp locally and we don't drive very far.
- At start, pressure is about 40-45 PSI
- At hot idle, pressure is about 15 - 20
- Driving, pressure is as low as about 7 at a stop light, but will get up to anywhere between 20 and 30 at ~2500 RPM
- I run Rotella T4 15W40 and change the oil annually or every 3k miles (but never drive that much in a season).
- No rattles, thumps or other suspicious engine noise.
- All readings were confirmed with a cheap mechanical pressure gauge.

Given these oil pressure readings, I am seriously wondering about the "new" engine. Maybe it was a swap and not a rebuild, or perhaps it was a partial rebuild and the bearings were never replaced (??). In any case, I am wondering if I should try 20/50 oil to bring up the pressure. I know that flow will be reduced, but I am concerned about top end lubrication at 7 PSI. I ofter put the tranny in neutral just to bring it up at stop lights.

Thoughts?


Jamie Sharp
South Central PA (Gettysburg area)
'76 Palm Beach, AKA "Grumble"

[Updated on: Mon, 08 August 2022 07:31]

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Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370313 is a reply to message #370312] Mon, 08 August 2022 08:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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Two questions:
What is your coolant temp?
What is your base idle speed?

Most of your numbers look fine. Hot idle is a bit low. Do not go to heavier oil as cure. It’s counterintuitive.

With your shorter trips, I would increase oil change frequency. I don’t like leaving combustion byproducts in there that long. I run Shell T6 full synthetic in 5W-40 with no issues and good oil pressure in all conditions.

Adding 50 base idle RPM may bring up that low number at idle.
Synthetics are more viscosity stable through varying temp ranges.


John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370315 is a reply to message #370313] Mon, 08 August 2022 09:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
traveler1980 is currently offline  traveler1980   United States
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Hi John -

PO was running a 180 thermostat, but I plan to swap it out to 195 on the next coolant change. Average coolant temp is around 195 - 200.

Base idle RPM is around 750


Jamie Sharp
South Central PA (Gettysburg area)
'76 Palm Beach, AKA "Grumble"
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370316 is a reply to message #370312] Mon, 08 August 2022 09:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larry is currently offline  Larry   United States
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Hi Jamie,
Here is my take on this, so JMHO. A long time standard for oil pressure is 10 psi for every 1000 rpm. So, 20psi @ 2000rpm, 30psi @ 3000rpm...etc...etc. That being said, pressure is important, but more important than that is flow and the amount of oil getting to the bearings. The more oil the better the lubrication taking place. The more oil going to the bearings, the more heat is displaced to the pan for cooling. The thicker the oil is, may bring up pressure, but also reduces the amount of flow to the bearings.

For more information try reading this thread that I commented to January of 2021. Lots of info and comments from others here. JMHO

http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=362020&rid=19&srch=engine+oils#msg_362020



Larry Smile
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370317 is a reply to message #370316] Mon, 08 August 2022 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
traveler1980 is currently offline  traveler1980   United States
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Larry wrote on Mon, 08 August 2022 09:46
Hi Jamie,
Here is my take on this, so JMHO. A long time standard for oil pressure is 10 psi for every 1000 rpm. So, 20psi @ 2000rpm, 30psi @ 3000rpm...etc...etc. That being said, pressure is important, but more important than that is flow and the amount of oil getting to the bearings. The more oil the better the lubrication taking place. The more oil going to the bearings, the more heat is displaced to the pan for cooling. The thicker the oil is, may bring up pressure, but also reduces the amount of flow to the bearings.

For more information try reading this thread that I commented to January of 2021. Lots of info and comments from others here. JMHO

http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=362020&rid=19&srch=engine+oils#msg_362020


Thanks Larry. I guess I should just stick with the 15W40. Just wish there was a way to get that pressure up a bit, short of pulling the engine.


Jamie Sharp
South Central PA (Gettysburg area)
'76 Palm Beach, AKA "Grumble"
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370320 is a reply to message #370317] Mon, 08 August 2022 14:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larry is currently offline  Larry   United States
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If you read that blog you would find that the methodology used is very basically to rub two pieces of metal together while pouring oils tested between them and applying pressure until the metal breaks through the oil film, scoring the metal. The Rotella 15w40 is rated at #222 (at 72,022 psi) of the 279 oils tested. Maybe take a look at #71. 10W40 Valvoline MaxLife High Mileage synthetic blend (red bottle) = 103,840 psi. With that you would get the 40w for hot running and a 10w for better oiling at cold starts. Also the extra advantage of seal swelling additives to reduce oil leakage. Personally I would go with #16. 0W40 Mobil 1 “FS” European Car Formula, synthetic = 127,221 psi. You would have much better wear resistance @ 127,221psi with the 40w you need for hot running and 0w for good flow to bearings on cold starting. I am now running #1 on the list 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” in the green bottle, @152,674 psi. I use to run the Mobil one and recently changed to QS 5w30. Oil pressure drop when going from the 0w40 mobil one, to 5w30 QS was 2-3psi at a hot run, and raise of 5psi at hot idle. Oil pressure now is 42-45psi hot highway speeds and 25-35psi at a hot idle. The QS 5w30 can be had for about $23 per 5qt pail at Walmart, a pretty reasonable price. You can also raise the oil pressure by dropping the pan and installing a high capacity oil pump.....a lot of work with only maybe getting higher oil pressure you are looking for.

Just my relatively informed, off the cuff, back yard mechanic, gut level, eyeball it up and guestimate, (based on some actual research) opinion...that's all...


Larry Smile
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.

[Updated on: Mon, 08 August 2022 14:55]

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Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370321 is a reply to message #370320] Mon, 08 August 2022 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
traveler1980 is currently offline  traveler1980   United States
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Larry wrote on Mon, 08 August 2022 14:53
If you read that blog you would find that the methodology used is very basically to rub two pieces of metal together while pouring oils tested between them and applying pressure until the metal breaks through the oil film, scoring the metal. The Rotella 15w40 is rated at #222 (at 72,022 psi) of the 279 oils tested. Maybe take a look at #71. 10W40 Valvoline MaxLife High Mileage synthetic blend (red bottle) = 103,840 psi. With that you would get the 40w for hot running and a 10w for better oiling at cold starts. Also the extra advantage of seal swelling additives to reduce oil leakage. Personally I would go with #16. 0W40 Mobil 1 “FS” European Car Formula, synthetic = 127,221 psi. You would have much better wear resistance @ 127,221psi with the 40w you need for hot running and 0w for good flow to bearings on cold starting. I am now running #1 on the list 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” in the green bottle, @152,674 psi. I use to run the Mobil one and recently changed to QS 5w30. Oil pressure drop when going from the 0w40 mobil one, to 5w30 QS was 2-3psi at a hot run, and raise of 5psi at hot idle. Oil pressure now is 42-45psi hot highway speeds and 25-35psi at a hot idle. The QS 5w30 can be had for about $23 per 5qt pail at Walmart, a pretty reasonable price. You can also raise the oil pressure by dropping the pan and installing a high capacity oil pump.....a lot of work with only maybe getting higher oil pressure you are looking for.

Just my relatively informed, off the cuff, back yard mechanic, gut level, eyeball it up and guestimate, (based on some actual research) opinion...that's all...

Thanks! I’ve read that oil blog before and not sure what to make of it. The guy uses a proprietary methodology for evaluating oils and comes across as a bit headstrong. Some folks are on board, others not so much. There’s also the debate about zinc and whether it’s still needed for our flat tappet lifters. Again, some say it’s a must have for the engine and others say oil formulation has improved to the point where zinc is unnecessary. I know there are plenty of people running without ZDDP, so there is probably some truth to that latter argument. I’ll take a look at that 10w40 you recommended.

I thought about installing the high volume oil pump, but that’s a lot of work. I really don’t want to lift the engine.


Jamie Sharp
South Central PA (Gettysburg area)
'76 Palm Beach, AKA "Grumble"
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370324 is a reply to message #370321] Mon, 08 August 2022 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larry is currently offline  Larry   United States
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/quote]

Thanks! I’ve read that oil blog before and not sure what to make of it. The guy uses a proprietary methodology for evaluating oils and comes across as a bit headstrong. Some folks are on board, others not so much. There’s also the debate about zinc and whether it’s still needed for our flat tappet lifters. Again, some say it’s a must have for the engine and others say oil formulation has improved to the point where zinc is unnecessary. I know there are plenty of people running without ZDDP, so there is probably some truth to that latter argument. I’ll take a look at that 10w40 you recommended.

I thought about installing the high volume oil pump, but that’s a lot of work. I really don’t want to lift the engine.[/quote]

A bit headstrong is a good way to describe the blog. The self praise and bluster can be quite the turnoff. Never the less, I've been unable to find another group/agency/individual that is actually doing any kind of independent oil testing. It has been said that it is hard to find a bad oil out there, so for me if you have engineering and scientific testing that shows certain oils are better than others in reducing wear, why not go with it.
The information there is IMO, worth serious consideration.


Larry Smile
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370325 is a reply to message #370312] Tue, 09 August 2022 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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One more thing to consider, how multi vis oil is made with dino vs syn.
Dino 10W-40 for example is 10 weight oil. They add long chain viscosity modifiers to get the 10 to behave like 40 when hot. The oil molecules are still really 10 weight. With use the viscosity modifier package is exhausted along with other additive chemicals.
By design, true synthetic oil behaves more like multivis. On both ends. It flows better cold so it can be thicker at room temp and still get the 10W rating. It also tends to thin less at high temps. Because of this, less or in some cases no viscosity modifiers are needed to get the multivis rating with syn. This also increases oil life as less or no viscosity modifiers to break down with use. They tend to be broken down during extreme conditions (motorhome duty).
In my opinion, based on cost to R and R a TZE engine, shorter oil change intervals are money well spent. Several factors go into oil change intervals, but one cannot be denied. Fuel rate and associated combustion byproducts. In rough terms our fuel rate is about double the Toronado (9 vs 17-18). That makes me think 1/2ing the oil interval is wise. Double fuel rate makes double the combustion water, though the high loads help to remove that water, the acids build up. Then we park it for months on end. A bad formula.
I’d try a true syn as Larry (and Dick Patterson) recommends. Some oils are syn rated as they perform like syn but are not syn. Also Dick recommends not exceeding 40 hot rating.


John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370326 is a reply to message #370321] Tue, 09 August 2022 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Jamie,

I guess you don't know that the pressure of lube oil delivery is substantially unimportant. If you had more experience with engine development, you would know that on the list of things lube oil does in an engine, hydraulic pressure lubrication (that were the lube oil pressure supports the bearing journal) is way down the list. Were this not true, plain bearing engines could not survive with a splash lube system.

This has been stated before, but here is the list again:
1- Cooling Very - Important to cool the underside of pistons
2- Damping - To stop parts from ratting and damaging each other
3- Flushing - Remove debris created by wear and combustion
4- Working Fluid - as in hydraulic lash and chain adjusters
5- Prevent surface contact - any place metal parts meet like cam faces
6- hydraulic wedge lubrication - how it works in a splash or 2 stroke engine
7- Gap filling - very much like 2 and 5 but specific to irregular parts
8- Pressure support of journal bearings - this is crank and rod bearings
9- It seems I forgot one as I used to know nine, but the last was what I have as eight.

Even with the low lube oil pressures at idle, the hydraulic wedge is still what actually makes the bearings work. This is also a great way to understand why lugging and engine is so very bad for the bearings.

You can worry about this if you choose, but don't really start to sweat until you can hear the dry lash adjusters (lifters) rattle.

Matt - The refugee from dyno land



Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370327 is a reply to message #370325] Tue, 09 August 2022 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
traveler1980 is currently offline  traveler1980   United States
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JohnL455 wrote on Tue, 09 August 2022 09:57
One more thing to consider, how multi vis oil is made with dino vs syn.
Dino 10W-40 for example is 10 weight oil. They add long chain viscosity modifiers to get the 10 to behave like 40 when hot. The oil molecules are still really 10 weight. With use the viscosity modifier package is exhausted along with other additive chemicals.
By design, true synthetic oil behaves more like multivis. On both ends. It flows better cold so it can be thicker at room temp and still get the 10W rating. It also tends to thin less at high temps. Because of this, less or in some cases no viscosity modifiers are needed to get the multivis rating with syn. This also increases oil life as less or no viscosity modifiers to break down with use. They tend to be broken down during extreme conditions (motorhome duty).
In my opinion, based on cost to R and R a TZE engine, shorter oil change intervals are money well spent. Several factors go into oil change intervals, but one cannot be denied. Fuel rate and associated combustion byproducts. In rough terms our fuel rate is about double the Toronado (9 vs 17-18). That makes me think 1/2ing the oil interval is wise. Double fuel rate makes double the combustion water, though the high loads help to remove that water, the acids build up. Then we park it for months on end. A bad formula.
I’d try a true syn as Larry (and Dick Patterson) recommends. Some oils are syn rated as they perform like syn but are not syn. Also Dick recommends not exceeding 40 hot rating.
Good point about the more frequent oil changes. I always change the oil before storing the coach in the fall, but maybe an additional change half way through the season is worthwhile.


Jamie Sharp
South Central PA (Gettysburg area)
'76 Palm Beach, AKA "Grumble"
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370328 is a reply to message #370326] Tue, 09 August 2022 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
traveler1980 is currently offline  traveler1980   United States
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Matt Colie wrote on Tue, 09 August 2022 10:08
Jamie,

I guess you don't know that the pressure of lube oil delivery is substantially unimportant. If you had more experience with engine development, you would know that on the list of things lube oil does in an engine, hydraulic pressure lubrication (that were the lube oil pressure supports the bearing journal) is way down the list. Were this not true, plain bearing engines could not survive with a splash lube system.

This has been stated before, but here is the list again:
1- Cooling Very - Important to cool the underside of pistons
2- Damping - To stop parts from ratting and damaging each other
3- Flushing - Remove debris created by wear and combustion
4- Working Fluid - as in hydraulic lash and chain adjusters
5- Prevent surface contact - any place metal parts meet like cam faces
6- hydraulic wedge lubrication - how it works in a splash or 2 stroke engine
7- Gap filling - very much like 2 and 5 but specific to irregular parts
8- Pressure support of journal bearings - this is crank and rod bearings
9- It seems I forgot one as I used to know nine, but the last was what I have as eight.

Even with the low lube oil pressures at idle, the hydraulic wedge is still what actually makes the bearings work. This is also a great way to understand why lugging and engine is so very bad for the bearings.

You can worry about this if you choose, but don't really start to sweat until you can hear the dry lash adjusters (lifters) rattle.

Matt - The refugee from dyno land

Makes sense, Matt. I don't have much experience with engines at all am in the long process of teaching myself with a lot of help from the service manual, and very importantly, the folks here in this forum. Thanks for your input!


Jamie Sharp
South Central PA (Gettysburg area)
'76 Palm Beach, AKA "Grumble"
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370331 is a reply to message #370313] Tue, 09 August 2022 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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I would keep the 180 thermostat. The 195 can make the oil a little thinner and lower the pressure a little more. I run Rotella 15W40 and a 180 thermostat.

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370332 is a reply to message #370331] Tue, 09 August 2022 22:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
traveler1980 is currently offline  traveler1980   United States
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Ken Burton wrote on Tue, 09 August 2022 16:54
I would keep the 180 thermostat. The 195 can make the oil a little thinner and lower the pressure a little more. I run Rotella 15W40 and a 180 thermostat.
Makes sense. I've read through many posts here discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the 180 vs 195. While inconclusive (kind of like oil discussions Very Happy ), I was thinking about going to the 195 because 1) that was the stock thermostat configuration and 2) my engine rarely gets hotter than 195 - 200, but will bounce between 180 and 195, especially when not on highways and on the hilly roads where I live. I figured it might be better the reduce the temperature spread and keep the temp more consistent with less expansion/contraction. Maybe that doesn't matter, though, and if a higher temperature thermostat could potentially make my pressure situation worse, I'll keep it at 180.


Jamie Sharp
South Central PA (Gettysburg area)
'76 Palm Beach, AKA "Grumble"
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370333 is a reply to message #370332] Wed, 10 August 2022 02:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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I took Dick Paterson's recommendation to me many years ago and use a 180 with Rotella 15W40 oil. I get about 5000 to a quart and change it at 5000 to 6000 or every fall before storage for the winter. His comment was anything you can do to run it cooler is better for both engine and trans .

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370367 is a reply to message #370333] Tue, 16 August 2022 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Keith V is currently offline  Keith V   United States
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Whatever thermostat temp you decide on get the flowcooler one, it really does help.
good to hear Dick recommends the 180


Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370368 is a reply to message #370312] Tue, 16 August 2022 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lqqkatjon is currently offline  lqqkatjon   United States
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180 was not a good thing for my engine. It only ran that cool when it wasnt under any load. Hit a hill or tow something on a hot day that 180 was doing nothing. Might as well take it out.

Put the 195 in and it runs all the time within 5 degrees of that. Do jot see 180-200 degree temp swings like with the 180.



As for oil pressure, make sure you are reading it right. Seems lately people have been stressing out and the fault was the gauge was off.


Jon Roche 75 palm beach EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now. St. Cloud, MN http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
Re: Oil Pressure Woes [message #370369 is a reply to message #370312] Tue, 16 August 2022 20:39 Go to previous message
Tom Katzenberger is currently offline  Tom Katzenberger   United States
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Jon,

You are very right. After all my temp woes the gauge was actually accurate. Now I double checked my dash vacuum gauge with another vacuum gauge and the dash gauge is very much out. I attached the dash vacuum gauge directly to the intake and sure enough it is out.

Its about 4 Hg out which was enough to make me worry about the condition of the engine. I am so much happier replacing the gauge.

It appears that sometimes it really is too much information, especially when the information is wrong.

Have a wonderful evening all,
Tom K.


Tom & Oki Katzenberger, Kingsville, Maryland, 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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