Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI
| Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370266] |
Wed, 03 August 2022 20:40  |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Guys,
As I am working out the hot engine issue I going to check into the engine timing as a possible culprit. Is there any advise on setting the timing with the Howell EFI system installed and does it sound possible that the timing could be causing my 225-235 degree engine temp?
Thanks guys and have a great evening,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370270 is a reply to message #370267] |
Wed, 03 August 2022 23:40  |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
|
Senior Member |
|
|
If your distributor timing is set by the EFI system, one thing to check is that the base timing advance of the distributor matches what the EFI system has been told. If the EFI system doesn't do spark control then there's nothing that it can do to change timing related heat issues.
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370274 is a reply to message #370266] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 08:43 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bill,
I do have spark control as I purchased the complete EBL, WUD system with Dist. from Jim K. I thought the computer would take care of the timing. The engine runs great, but perhaps I need to advance the timing. I will shoot the timing at 800 RPM today and check to see where it is. I don't know where to find the timing ° the computer desires? I will call applied today.
I am grabbing at straws as far as over heating goes. I have had the radiator re-cored, now I am questioning the re-core workmanship because I have installed a new water pump, thermostat, cap, fan clutch and hoses. The shroud is set as required. I need to go through the system with a fine toothed comb.
Thank you again for your help, tips and advice!
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370275 is a reply to message #370266] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 08:46 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
P.S. The engine has never overboiled and the reserve tank is never hot?
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370277 is a reply to message #370266] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 10:23 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thank you Bruce,
I will look for that wire now. I just checked the timing while everything was hooked up and I couldn't even find the mark on the balancer. I went under the coach to see if the mark was still visible and it was clearly a white line. I painted the line when I re-installed the hormonic balancer and timing chain. I for got to mention that I put a new double roller timing chain on. I wonder if the timing drifted or I did a bad job on the initial timing when I put everything back together.
Thanks you,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370278 is a reply to message #370266] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 11:17 |
kingd
Messages: 592
Registered: June 2004
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Tom, I would suggest you start with the "basic" engine ignition timing process.
Figure out which cylinder is number 1(one) on an American V8 it is usually the cylinder closest to the front of the engine
Take out the spark plug on that cylinder
Somehow turn the engine over by hand until that piston is at Top Dead Center(TDC)
See if you can find the timing mark
If things are correct the "mark" should be passed the "pointer" or what ever on the non moving part of the front cover
At this point we're just trying determine where TDC is in relation to the balancer
The engine could either be at TDC on the firing stroke or TDC at the end of the EXHAUST stroke
Take the distributor cap off and see where the ROTOR is pointing
The rotor "should" be pointing at the number 1(one) spark plug
That means the number one piston is at the TOP of the compression stroke
Let us know what you find.
If the timing was out 180 degrees the motor wouldn't run
Are you sure about how you installed the "new" distributor
Remember the distributor gear slightly rotates as you put the distributor into place
OLDSMOBILE distributors rotate the opposite direction to other GM V8 engines (I think)
GOOD HUNTING
DAVE KING
lurker, wannabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
[Updated on: Thu, 04 August 2022 15:58] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370279 is a reply to message #370277] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 11:44 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Tom, Bruce...
I looked at the BIN file from Applied, plus RVW's EBL install write up, and the Initial SA (Spark Advance) parameter in the BIN is set to 6 degrees, so that is what the EBL expects unless it's been changed. Randy's write-up describes how to set the initial timing to match....
"--With engine off, disconnect the wire coming from the distributor that has the connector (this
wire is typically tan in color). This step tells the ECM not to control the distributor allowing you
to set the correct timing.
--With a timing light correctly attached, +12v, ground and the
signal device attached to spark plug wire #1, set the timing to 6
degrees. It sometimes helps to “paint” the area to either side of
the timing mark on the harmonic balancer to make it more
visible (white-out works well for this or a brush and some
white paint – do not get paint down into the mark). The image
to the right shows 8 degrees – 6 degrees is the valley between 4
and 8. Sometimes it helps to use a flash light and look at the
timing indicator to identify where the marks are located – they
vary some for different engines and years.
--With the timing set turn off engine and tighten down the hold down clamp.
--Start engine and recheck the timing (it sometimes moves when tightening the clamp). Turn
engine off.
--With timing set to 6 degrees, re-connect the tan wire.
--Start the engine."
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370280 is a reply to message #370266] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 11:55 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Guys,
I couldn't find the disconnect for the one wire, but I did set the timing to 12 degrees and the engine is running well. There is a slight movement on the line at the 12 degree mark. This may be due to a cheap timing light, vacuum leak which I will look for or the computer learning the new timing?
I can say that the timing was way retarded and that alone may account for the over heating. I did find that the Alternator belt rolled. I just ordered new belts from V-Belt.com. It could have been twisted below. I have had the belts loosened and reinstalled several times with the installation of the Sanden compressor and rebuilt alternator. I worry that the 100 amp alternator up grade may be a little much for the single belt?
Once I get the belt straight I will test drive it. If successful (even if not), I will stop and give thanks for guys like you guys. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.
Take care and stay healthy,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370281 is a reply to message #370280] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 14:16 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Tom,
I've edited this because my first attempt was sort of backwards...
Looking at a datalog, my coach idles (warm in closed loop) at about 14 deg, so the ECM is adding 8 deg to the 'Initial SA' of 6 degrees.
BobR states, in his Spark Control writeup that:
Initial spark advance. This value should be what the physical distributor timing is set to. This value gets subtracted from the Total Spark Advance. (but is physically added back in by the position of the distributor relative to piston tdc).
So if you left the distributor connected, turned on the engine, and read the light it would have shown 14 deg. So to get 12 you would have to turn the distributor and retard the spark by two degrees. It would be interesting to see what the light says with the wire disconnected.
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
[Updated on: Thu, 04 August 2022 23:22] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370282 is a reply to message #370266] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 17:04 |
cadelec
Messages: 303
Registered: September 2011
Location: Brisbane Australia
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I know this may sound stupid but you say that you have never boiled or had overflow into the overflow tank have you checked whether your gauge is accurate.
With a 7 lb cap the boiling point should be around 230 degrees F
Trevor
Brisbane Australia
Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores)
71 Cadillac Eldo Convert
58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370285 is a reply to message #370266] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 18:01 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Trevor,
I never let it get that hot, as I was responding to the gauges before an over temp situation. When I saw the trend I would pull over and let t cool. It is a new radiator cap, I think the pressure never got to 9 lb before I shut it down. You are right, it is something to check just to make sure.
I think we nailed it with the timing being retarded. It was off by soooo much, it is the only thing that was out of order. Before that I was just replacing new parts with new parts. I can't road test now as it is raining cats and dogs. Or as we say in my family, Katz en Bergers, LOL.
I will road test tomorrow and report the results. I found a lot of entries listing problems and possible solutions, but sometimes people don't report back the results. Reporting back is very helpful to others who may have the same problem down the road and I am glad to do so.
Thank you for your thought, again it is very much appreciated.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370286 is a reply to message #370266] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 19:09 |
 |
RF_Burns
Messages: 2276
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Tom,
I looked at my copy of Applied's BIN dated 20170709. The initial spark setting is 6 degrees, but you said you could not find the wire connector to disconnect, so according to the BIN I have, the EBL ECM was commanding about 23 degrees advance at idle speeds. So when you set the timing to 12 degrees you have now actually retarded the whole spark curve about 11 degrees.
When you crank the engine, the ECM disables the electronic spark advance using the Bypass wire, so the distributor fires on it's initial spark advance setting (in your case should be 6 degrees) Once the engine starts and the RPMs exceed 400 RPM, the ECM asserts a voltage on the Bypass wire to the distributor so it starts taking spark advance commands from the ECM. At that time the advance jumps to about 23 degrees but from my reading, you now have the timing set to 12 degrees with the bypass wire still connected.
Here is a link to the wiring diagrams.
http://dynamicefi.com/EBL_Drawings.php
The second drawing down (page2) shows the distributor connections. ECM Pin D5 shows a Tan/Black strip Bypass wire going to pin B of the distributor module. It also shows a connector as "--<<--" in that wire. It may not be the same colour wire in your setup and it may be at the ECM or distributor end of the wire. If there is no connector, you can easily install an insulated quick-connect connector on the Bypass wire coming from ECM pin D5. I would suggest installing the connector at the ECM side so that it is protected from water etc.
Hope this is clearer than mud!
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370288 is a reply to message #370266] |
Thu, 04 August 2022 19:52 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bruce,
I think I am inhaling what you are exhausting, I'm smelling what you are stepping in, I'm picking up what you are putting down, LOL.
Basically: find the by-pass. If no connector make one at the ECM so it is easier to protect from the elements, Disconnect the bypass and set the timing for 6 degrees.
You did a great job of explaining! I now completely understand. My biggest challenge will be to locate the tan/black by-pass wire at D5.
I will jump on this tomorrow morning. I am very excited as I feel I truly am getting there.
I can't tell you how grateful I am for your help and the help of others. You guys have been great. Thank you, thank you, thank you all.
Have a wonderful evening, sincerely,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370293 is a reply to message #370266] |
Fri, 05 August 2022 11:08 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bruce,
I called Howell and spoke with Troy. I found the bypass that you spoke of and is indicated in the drawing about 9" back from the fuel pump relay. It was tucked into the wire loom/harness. I dis-connected and re-timed the engine. Troy stated that it should be somewhere between 0 and 4 degrees. I reconnected the bypass and the engine continued to run great, but indicated hot on the Digi panel and the analog gauge. Readings are as follows:
Dash gauge ---------------------------- 1/4 up the scale
Digi Panel ---------------------------- Approx 230 degrees
Stewart warner arm rest gauge --------- Approx 225 degrees
WUD ----------------------------------- 204 degrees
Harbor Freight Infra Red -------------- 192 degrees (shot at the thermostat housing)
Due to the fact that the engine and cooling system is maintaining these numbers, do you think the Digi panel and SW gauge may have a problem with calibration or location. i.e. picking up exhaust heat or something of that nature? The Digi panel gets most of the attention because of the alarm and lights, but maybe it's just inaccurate at this time. The vehicle has never actually overheated or steamed off.
It just may be that the Harbor Freight infra red, the dash gauge and the WUD are the ones which currently are more accurate. Which one do you think I should calibrate off of.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370294 is a reply to message #370293] |
Fri, 05 August 2022 12:21 |
 |
Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Tom,
Old saying, "Man with two watches never knows what time it is."
Generally I'd take the IR reading over the other sensors. The WUD is displaying to the degree but if the sender and wiring are iffy that "accuracy" can give a false sense of security or false cause for alarm.
Are you taking the IR reading on the metal of the housing? Reading should be taken on the hose - flat black is the best for IR readings. Might not make that much difference, but...
https://www.thermoworks.com/emissivity-table/
IIRC the OEM sender shows 1/4 at the normal operating temperature, and 1/2 is starting to overheat. What sender do you have for the dash gauge?
Troy is the Man at Howell, but 0-4° initial is lower than anything I've seen for a GMC MH. You wouldn't go wrong following exactly what Randy Van Winkle says.
Sounds like you're getting there. Keep up the good work!
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370295 is a reply to message #370294] |
Fri, 05 August 2022 12:58 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Tom,
If you want to help your EBL do it's job controlling fuel and spark, set your timing at six degrees.
The temperature sensed by the Delphi TS10075 OEM coolant temp sensor for the GM throttle body EFI system is used for many EFI fueling adjustments, so GM would want it to be pretty accurate. No reason why the IR gun would be off.
Here's a discussion on the factory gauge sensor, and a replacement one that reads in the middle of the gauge for normal operating temps.
http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&rid=0&th=8796&goto=59670
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
[Updated on: Fri, 05 August 2022 13:06] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370296 is a reply to message #370266] |
Fri, 05 August 2022 14:49 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bill,
I will set to 6 degrees tomorrow morning.
I just drove the coach for 2 hours from Baltimore to Annapolis Maryland 85-90 OAT (outside Air Temp) and it held 214, +-7 degrees. I ordered the Robertshaw Flowkooler 330-195 thermostat. I am hoping that will help somehow.
I was very happy as I was in stop and go traffic and the Digi panel was full red and alarm blaring and the Stewart Warner Gauge was indicating 235 degrees, but the WUD showed 214, highest was 221 degrees, lowest was 207.
I am hoping I can get the temp to drop and then calibrate the gauges and sender.
Bill, thank you again and again. I appreciate both you walking me through and teaching me a few items in the process.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
|
|
|
|
| Re: Timing and Overheating with the Howell EFI [message #370302 is a reply to message #370266] |
Sun, 07 August 2022 06:50 |
|
RF_Burns
Messages: 2276
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This Ex-farmboy shade-tree mechanic + 50 years in electronics has a different view on the sensor readings.
The IR and DigiPanel both sense temperature on the outside of the thermostat housing. There will be a temperature difference from the inside of the thermostat housing (coolant temperature) to the outside (cooler air flowing through the engine compartment), mind you it might not be very much.
I would trust a contact sensor more than the IR. And I would trust a sensor immersed in the coolant to be sensing the actual coolant temperature over a sensor on the outside of the housing.
Next I would look at the accuracy expected of the gauge and sensor.
-The OEM dash gauge has no temperature markings and its accepted readings are 1/4 = normal, 1/2 = HOT!, although these are not marked. So the best you can say is that anything over its "normal" reading is hotter than normal!!
-The aftermarket Stewart Warner gauge likely has an accuracy of 5% of full scale. So if full scale is 250, then the temperature could be +/- 12.5 degrees from its actual reading.
-The DigiPanel uses the semiconductor Base-Emitter junction of transistor to sense the temperature at the mounted location. Why they don't use an actual temperature sensing device likely goes back to when the DigiPanel was designed and what was available vs cost at that time. When calibrated at the desired temperature (likely at 100C) its accuracy is likely round 2%, but the display is in 15 degree steps, so it's best is 7.5 degrees. But it is a great tool for warning of problems... I love my DigiPanel!
-The IR gun from Harbor Freight is not likely to be the most accurate device on the market. It should be in the ballpark but there are many variables to it's reading. It's good for confirming something is HOT, but not for accuracy.
-The EBL WUD has its sensor immersed in coolant and is read using a modern Digital to Analog Converter (DAC) within the EBL. It's accuracy is dependent on the sensor which is likely about 2% so +/- 4 degrees F at 200F.
So I give the What's Up Display the WIN here for the most accurate measurement of what's happening here.
I'm thinking you have a bum thermostat and that would be my first step. I would also test the new thermostat in a pot of hot water on the stove with a thermometer.
JimK now owns DigiPanel, so he should be able to tell you how to calibrate the DigiPanel.
Question: What does the Stewart Warner gauge use for a sensor?
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Sun May 05 10:36:30 CDT 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01583 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
