Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] sreering
| [GMCnet] sreering [message #367388] |
Fri, 29 October 2021 12:55  |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409
Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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yes Emory been through all that about the middle wheel causing steering issues..done the six wheel alignment and checked play and replaced bearings in the rear wheels just cause I had them .then alignment 6 wheel again..Think I have covered all the bases over the years..but...this steering box range has me wondering????? thanks for the input
Brian Waddell
77 ele 455
Sperling, mb. Canada
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| [GMCnet] Re: sreering [message #367393 is a reply to message #367391] |
Fri, 29 October 2021 16:07  |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Handling problems are very intensive as some of the issues are in the back.
Height level can cause issues.Also the rear wheel alignment are not done in
a way that gives results .
Our shop is but probably two GMC mh shop that has a rear Alignment Pads.
On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 11:38 AM Brian Waddell
wrote:
> no..bfg...new...no steel sidewalls..tks
> Brian
> 77 eke 455
> sperling mb. canada
> ________________________________
> From: Jerry Wheeler
> Sent: October 29, 2021 12:22 PM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] Re: sreering
>
> Are you running all steel tires?? I had some wander and most of that went
> away when I changed tires.
> JR Wheeler 78 Royale Charleston, Oregon
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 1:55 PM Brian Waddell
> wrote:
>
>> yes Emory been through all that about the middle wheel causing steering
>> issues..done the six wheel alignment and checked play and replaced
> bearings
>> in the rear wheels just cause I had them .then alignment 6 wheel
>> again..Think I have covered all the bases over the years..but...this
>> steering box range has me wondering????? thanks for the input
>>
>> Brian Waddell
>> 77 ele 455
>> Sperling, mb. Canada
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| [GMCnet] Re: sreering [message #367394 is a reply to message #367390] |
Fri, 29 October 2021 16:29 |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409
Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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6 wheel alignment 2 different shops that do semis and trailers.. have readjusted front and rear heights..adjusted torsion bars the correct manner...your offset bushings installed correctly....centered steering box correctly...replaced relay lever and relay arm (lentz)...pitman arm and tie rods....question is...Does my 2.5 turn steering box cause a problem...I just learned about the muscle car story on steering boxes from this net...I did not install this and am wondering where it came from...did gmc install some of these? your alignment shop is about 2000 miles from my motorhome that I bought at sea side calif about 20 years ago
Brian Waddell
77 ele 455
Sperling mb. canada
________________________________
From: Jim Kanomata
Sent: October 29, 2021 3:07 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: sreering
Handling problems are very intensive as some of the issues are in the back.
Height level can cause issues.Also the rear wheel alignment are not done in
a way that gives results .
Our shop is but probably two GMC mh shop that has a rear Alignment Pads.
On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 11:38 AM Brian Waddell
wrote:
> no..bfg...new...no steel sidewalls..tks
> Brian
> 77 eke 455
> sperling mb. canada
> ________________________________
> From: Jerry Wheeler
> Sent: October 29, 2021 12:22 PM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] Re: sreering
>
> Are you running all steel tires?? I had some wander and most of that went
> away when I changed tires.
> JR Wheeler 78 Royale Charleston, Oregon
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 1:55 PM Brian Waddell
> wrote:
>
>> yes Emory been through all that about the middle wheel causing steering
>> issues..done the six wheel alignment and checked play and replaced
> bearings
>> in the rear wheels just cause I had them .then alignment 6 wheel
>> again..Think I have covered all the bases over the years..but...this
>> steering box range has me wondering????? thanks for the input
>>
>> Brian Waddell
>> 77 ele 455
>> Sperling, mb. Canada
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] sreering [message #367395 is a reply to message #367388] |
Fri, 29 October 2021 16:51 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
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After all you have invested, I'd sure try a new steering box. I assume the rear alignment bent the bogies and/or added shims if they needed it. You might try Alex Ferrara's steering diagnostic to see if that turns something up.
Some play can come from the intermediate steering column; One can replace it with Borgeson parts (do some research to make sure you'll be happy with that approach). That would eliminate two points of play (and add back a double-D shaft that might add one back over time.
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re: sreering [message #367397 is a reply to message #367396] |
Fri, 29 October 2021 17:38 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
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Senior Member |
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I think you want a GMC Motorhome steering box that has the correct internal stops to keep the knuckle from hitting the lower control arm.
You can get a core if you can find someone that has one from their parts coach to sell.
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re: sreering [message #367408 is a reply to message #367391] |
Sat, 30 October 2021 00:01 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I, like everyone else here so far, am not going to answer your steering box 2.5 turn question because I do not know for sure.
I have known several GMC people who have replaced or had their box rebuilt only to find out it did not help much. I believe the box ought to work if the ratio is close to correct. The 2.5 turns is simply where the internal stops are located in the box. Unless there is a lot of wear in it causing excessive slop then there probably is no real reason to replace / rebuild the box.
It sounds like you have tried a lot of things. I did the same thing on mine. The biggest things that helped me was replacing the idler arm. There was a lot of wear / play in the arm bushing to mounting bolt. I put Dave Lenze's bearing type arm in instead of the older bushing type.
The next was replacing the worn and rotted lower control arm bushings with Energy Suspension Urethane bushings and at the same time put offset upper control arm bushings for more caster.
The next was setting the ride height EXACTLY correct. The ride height is not really the important thing, it is getting the weight on each pair of wheels nearly equal. Because of the design of the automatic adjusting rear air bags and the front springs (torsion bars) it is very possible to get each pair of wheels with hundreds of pounds difference between them while maladjusting the heights to correct that problem.
While weighing coaches at one of the GMCMI rallies we actually found one coach the was just shy of 800 pounds difference between the two front wheels while the ride heights were very close to correct. The rear diagonal corner from the the heavy front wheel was also about 800 pounds heavy (400 per wheel).
Finally after getting the weights straighten out, getting the rear ride height correct made the biggest difference in handling I found that some PO liked the rear riding high. Dropping it to the GMC spec made a huge difference.
The last is tire pressures. Airing tire pressures according to the weight on each also makes a large difference in handling. Micheline has a tire pressure chart on line for our coaches. My wheels and tires all come in at around 62 to 65 PSI for a 26 coach. That makes a big difference in handling instead of using the maximum of around 80 to 85 PSI that some many people use.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re: sreering [message #367409 is a reply to message #367408] |
Sat, 30 October 2021 01:00 |
boybach
Messages: 566
Registered: December 2020
Location: Vancouver Island
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Ken Burton wrote on Fri, 29 October 2021 22:01
While weighing coaches at one of the GMCMI rallies we actually found one coach the was just shy of 800 pounds difference between the two front wheels while the ride heights were very close to correct. The rear diagonal corner from the the heavy front wheel was also about 800 pounds heavy (400 per wheel).
I found this interesting Ken, are you saying here that even with the front ride height set correctly that particular coach was out of balance L to R by 800lbs? How on earth did that get sorted out?
Larry
Larry - Victoria BC -
1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
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| [GMCnet] Re: sreering [message #367410 is a reply to message #367408] |
Sat, 30 October 2021 01:09 |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409
Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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Thanks for the input Ken...Jim K thought the 2.5 turns box would make no difference on handling at hwy speeds...but would likely be of more value in city driving...he said he would be doing more research on it
I also got Dave Lenz relay arm and idler...made no discernible difference on my handling
I replaced tie rods. then upper control arm bushings, put offset in the rear....did not replace the lower bushings yet...the old uppers looked good, and gmc guys were saying the lowers when replaced are never worn enough to create steering issues...so new alcoas and tires and shocks and pitman arm. WE, local neighbors and alignment shop can not find any play in front end or rear end ...measured rear wheels to frame scribing mark on tire, then 6 wheel alignment. flat on box at square with the machined edge of cap on box.. 29-64th drill bit....idler and relay arm straight back parallel to frame when steering wheel centered...ride height correct by book front and back, adjusted the front right as it was an inch or so low...took pressure off the torsion bar bolt before adjusting....tried 50 to 75 lbs tire pressure...no difference...left them at 65... I do not know how to measure weight on each individual wheel.....will try a three point measurement as jim K suggested, lots of synthetic
grease in steering cv joint, I guess I gave up on it a couple of years ago ,then a post here about different steering boxes got me thinking maybe that is my problem
Brian waddell 77 ele 455
sperling mb canada
________________________________
From: Ken Burton
Sent: October 29, 2021 11:01 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: sreering
I, like everyone else here so far, am not going to answer your steering box 2.5 turn question because I do not know for sure.
I have known several GMC people who have replaced or had their box rebuilt only to find out it did not help much. I believe the box ought to work if
the ratio is close to correct. The 2.5 turns is simply where the internal stops are located in the box. Unless there is a lot of wear in it causing
excessive slop then there probably is no real reason to replace / rebuild the box.
It sounds like you have tried a lot of things. I did the same thing on mine. The biggest things that helped me was replacing the idler arm. There
was a lot of wear / play in the arm bushing to mounting bolt. I put Dave Lenze's bearing type arm in instead of the older bushing type.
The next was replacing the worn and rotted lower control arm bushings with Energy Suspension Urethane bushings and at the same time put offset upper
control arm bushings for more caster.
The next was setting the ride height EXACTLY correct. The ride height is not really the important thing, it is getting the weight on each pair of
wheels nearly equal. Because of the design of the automatic adjusting rear air bags and the front springs (torsion bars) it is very possible to get
each pair of wheels with hundreds of pounds difference between them while maladjusting the heights to correct that problem.
While weighing coaches at one of the GMCMI rallies we actually found one coach the was just shy of 800 pounds difference between the two front wheels
while the ride heights were very close to correct. The rear diagonal corner from the the heavy front wheel was also about 800 pounds heavy (400 per
wheel).
Finally after getting the weights straighten out, getting the rear ride height correct made the biggest difference in handling I found that some PO
liked the rear riding high. Dropping it to the GMC spec made a huge difference.
The last is tire pressures. Airing tire pressures according to the weight on each also makes a large difference in handling. Micheline has a tire
pressure chart on line for our coaches. My wheels and tires all come in at around 62 to 65 PSI for a 26 coach. That makes a big difference in
handling instead of using the maximum of around 80 to 85 PSI that some many people use.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re: sreering [message #367423 is a reply to message #367409] |
Sun, 31 October 2021 04:09 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I will try to explain this tomorrow night. It is very late now and I have to get up very early for a very busy day plus drive about 250 miles.
Ken
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re: sreering [message #367425 is a reply to message #367423] |
Sun, 31 October 2021 08:06 |
kingd
Messages: 592
Registered: June 2004
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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To Brian with the steering problem. I noted you said yiu used synthetic grease on the steering shaft. Ken Henderson's
"magic" solution was Moly fortified grease. Did you use Moly grease like Valvoline or MolySlip?
DAVE KING
lurker, wannabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Re: [GMCnet] sreering [message #367426 is a reply to message #367388] |
Sun, 31 October 2021 08:32 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Semi shops work on trucks with solid front axles and leaf springs. 99% of the time all they adjust is the toe. You need someone who understands GM A arm front ends and how caster and camber are adjusted and how the adjustments interact. I bought the Jerry Work home alignment kit and did mine myself.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] sreering [message #367433 is a reply to message #367388] |
Mon, 01 November 2021 14:49 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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One comment on "rear steer"... the middle wheels are prone to "rut steer", and can be a handful if you drop the rear wheels off the edge of the road (if there's any kind of lip).
The rear "trailing" bogie will just dutifully follow along, but the front one, mounted on a "leading bogie" (with the tire in front of the pivot point) is prone to flexing enough to cause a steering motion (always the way you don't want it to go). On my coach, this wasn't ever really a problem, but was very noticeable on interstate with pronounced truck ruts. And if I did drop the rear wheel off the edge of a lipped road, it could get downright "interesting" as I corrected (as the middle wheel flexed enough to send the rear of the coach moving the opposite direction until the force on the tire was enough to pop it up over the lip on the edge of the road).
I installed a set of the True Track devices on the middle axle bogies, and all these bad habits vanished (they keep the lateral deflection of the middle bogies to a few mm's).
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re: sreering [message #367437 is a reply to message #367428] |
Mon, 01 November 2021 15:46 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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I disagree with your statement "the gmc front end is nothing new to reputable wheel alignment places that do heavier vehicles like ours and trucks."
they do not always understand that when they jack up the coach front end, and set it back down, it needs to be driven, bounced, ect and re-checked because the suspension needs to "settle in". when you set the weight down on a coach, and check alinement. Then pull it off the lift, and back on, the specs are different before and after you lift up the weight.
have seen 6+ coaches that were aligned at those shops, that were never right.
also fwiw, our local Dodge Dealer can't align a dodge caravan correctly either. So the number of skilled shops/mechanics out there are getting less and less.
Brian Waddell wrote on Sun, 31 October 2021 11:59Most shops that do wheel alignments do not pay attention to the wheel wheels,,,they do not put the rear wheels on turntables to determine if the the rear has play causing caster camber or toe...an example would be a bent frame.
However, the gmc front end is nothing new to reputable wheel alignment places that do heavier vehicles like ours and trucks.
One more however..I have attempted to check wheel alignment myself using Work's methods and henderson's methods and would say that the shoips (x2 )of what they said it was.....was supported by my measurements of caster 3.5 +...camber 0 and toe pretty much 0...go0d enough... and those on here who tell of determining if the rear is out of whack or bent ..or play in stub axles....Thanks
Brian
77 ele 455
sperling mb canada
________________________________
From: John R.Lebetski
Sent: October 31, 2021 7:32 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: sreering
Semi shops work on trucks with solid front axles and leaf springs. 99% of the time all they adjust is the toe. You need someone who understands GM A
arm front ends and how caster and camber are adjusted and how the adjustments interact. I bought the Jerry Work home alignment kit and did mine
myself.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| [GMCnet] Re: sreering [message #367457 is a reply to message #367437] |
Mon, 01 November 2021 23:26 |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409
Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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Yes that is why I am told to come back the next day after 50 miles, and recheck it...that is what this shop tells the semi-tractor owners on air bags in the rear with levelling valves exactly like ours and have a recommended ride height to maintain , as the ride height affects steering geometry as you well know
Brian 77 ele 455
sper,ing mb canada
________________________________
From: Jon Roche
Sent: November 1, 2021 2:46 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: sreering
I disagree with your statement "the gmc front end is nothing new to reputable wheel alignment places that do heavier vehicles like ours and trucks."
they do not always understand that when they jack up the coach front end, and set it back down, it needs to be driven, bounced, ect and re-checked
because the suspension needs to "settle in". when you set the weight down on a coach, and check alinement. Then pull it off the lift, and back
on, the specs are different before and after you lift up the weight.
have seen 6+ coaches that were aligned at those shops, that were never right.
also fwiw, our local Dodge Dealer can't align a dodge caravan correctly either. So the number of skilled shops/mechanics out there are getting
less and less.
Brian Waddell wrote on Sun, 31 October 2021 11:59
> Most shops that do wheel alignments do not pay attention to the wheel wheels,,,they do not put the rear wheels on turntables to determine if the
> the rear has play causing caster camber or toe...an example would be a bent frame.
> However, the gmc front end is nothing new to reputable wheel alignment places that do heavier vehicles like ours and trucks.
> One more however..I have attempted to check wheel alignment myself using Work's methods and henderson's methods and would say that the shoips (x2
> )of what they said it was.....was supported by my measurements of caster 3.5 +...camber 0 and toe pretty much 0...go0d enough... and those on here
> who tell of determining if the rear is out of whack or bent ..or play in stub axles....Thanks
> Brian
> 77 ele 455
> sperling mb canada
> ________________________________
> From: John R.Lebetski
> Sent: October 31, 2021 7:32 AM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] Re: sreering
>
> Semi shops work on trucks with solid front axles and leaf springs. 99% of the time all they adjust is the toe. You need someone who understands
> GM A
> arm front ends and how caster and camber are adjusted and how the adjustments interact. I bought the Jerry Work home alignment kit and did mine
> myself.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| [GMCnet] Re: sreering [message #367461 is a reply to message #367457] |
Tue, 02 November 2021 11:06 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Jon,
With Microlevel the height should be easy. Worst case use the remote to tweek the rear height if you mess with the front height.
________________________________
From: Brian Waddell
Sent: Monday, November 1, 2021 11:26 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: sreering
Yes that is why I am told to come back the next day after 50 miles, and recheck it...that is what this shop tells the semi-tractor owners on air bags in the rear with levelling valves exactly like ours and have a recommended ride height to maintain , as the ride height affects steering geometry as you well know
Brian 77 ele 455
sper,ing mb canada
________________________________
From: Jon Roche
Sent: November 1, 2021 2:46 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: sreering
I disagree with your statement "the gmc front end is nothing new to reputable wheel alignment places that do heavier vehicles like ours and trucks."
they do not always understand that when they jack up the coach front end, and set it back down, it needs to be driven, bounced, ect and re-checked
because the suspension needs to "settle in". when you set the weight down on a coach, and check alinement. Then pull it off the lift, and back
on, the specs are different before and after you lift up the weight.
have seen 6+ coaches that were aligned at those shops, that were never right.
also fwiw, our local Dodge Dealer can't align a dodge caravan correctly either. So the number of skilled shops/mechanics out there are getting
less and less.
Brian Waddell wrote on Sun, 31 October 2021 11:59
> Most shops that do wheel alignments do not pay attention to the wheel wheels,,,they do not put the rear wheels on turntables to determine if the
> the rear has play causing caster camber or toe...an example would be a bent frame.
> However, the gmc front end is nothing new to reputable wheel alignment places that do heavier vehicles like ours and trucks.
> One more however..I have attempted to check wheel alignment myself using Work's methods and henderson's methods and would say that the shoips (x2
> )of what they said it was.....was supported by my measurements of caster 3.5 +...camber 0 and toe pretty much 0...go0d enough... and those on here
> who tell of determining if the rear is out of whack or bent ..or play in stub axles....Thanks
> Brian
> 77 ele 455
> sperling mb canada
> ________________________________
> From: John R.Lebetski
> Sent: October 31, 2021 7:32 AM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] Re: sreering
>
> Semi shops work on trucks with solid front axles and leaf springs. 99% of the time all they adjust is the toe. You need someone who understands
> GM A
> arm front ends and how caster and camber are adjusted and how the adjustments interact. I bought the Jerry Work home alignment kit and did mine
> myself.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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