Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Engine lubrication
| Engine lubrication [message #355626] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 05:35  |
tgeiger
Messages: 518
Registered: February 2006
Location: kansas city
Karma: -1
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So was watching a episode of “Roadkill” and they had purchased a old mazda pickup truck with a 455 in the bed of the truck. If you’ve ever watch the show, these Frankenstein vehicles are the basis of show. Anyhow one of the host commented that he was not excited about the 455, said it was one of the worst engines. Called it a boat anchor. I did some research and found some criticism on the way it leaves the bottom end of the engine dry of oil when run at high rpm for duration of time. What do you guys do to help manage this?
Thanks,
TG
Tom Geiger
76 Eleganza II
KCMO
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine lubrication [message #355631 is a reply to message #355628] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 07:33  |
94nubble
Messages: 275
Registered: July 2011
Location: Chesapeake VA
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I was just replying to the question. A 455 can't return oil over 4500rpm for any extended length of time without it pooling in the heads. The return line was the trick to getting oil back to the pan. My first experience with a 455 was in a Marlin jet boat I renovated many years ago. I ran it at 4800 for lengthy periods with out oil pressure loss. Scary thing. 85mph at 4800. I could shoot a rooster tail 80ft in the air.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p67346-jet-boat-455.html
Tom McManus
1977 Royale
Chesapeake VA
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| Re: Engine lubrication [message #355632 is a reply to message #355626] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 07:35 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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The jet boats (Buelher TurboCraft??) at high revs sustained, and they seemed to survive it. And, pumps and boats are analogous to aviation engines in this regard, as opposed to ground vehicle service. Constant speed and load,versus variations in both on the road.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Engine lubrication [message #355633 is a reply to message #355626] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 07:55 |
tgeiger
Messages: 518
Registered: February 2006
Location: kansas city
Karma: -1
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Yep understand. He was a younger guy and may not understood how tough those engines were built back then. Good to know it will be fine. Just getting it over to my house to do some projects on it and one of the first items is change the oil.
Tom Geiger
76 Eleganza II
KCMO
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine lubrication [message #355635 is a reply to message #355634] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 09:39 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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These engines were not designed for constant Hi revs .
People in the know made sure the return of the oil from the head drained
down easily and also restricted the amount of oil at the push rods.
On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 6:45 AM James Hupy via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Tom, just keep the revs under 5500, and you should be just fine. Let's see?
> 5500 rpm with 3:07 final drive and stock sized tire circumference, pencils
> out to not quite 120 mph. Good luck getting her home!
> (VERY BIG GRIN)
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon
>
> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 5:56 AM tom geiger via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> Yep understand. He was a younger guy and may not understood how tough
>> those engines were built back then. Good to know it will be fine. Just
>> getting
>> it over to my house to do some projects on it and one of the first items
>> is change the oil.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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www.appliedgmc.com
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| Re: Engine lubrication [message #355638 is a reply to message #355626] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 12:02 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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J.R. If GM says 10W-30 then what is your logic that 20W-50 is “better”? Seems it would exasperate the gravity drain back issues. Most builders today don’t like heavy oils as they pull less heat from bearings and heat kills soft bearings
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
[Updated on: Sat, 13 June 2020 12:03] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine lubrication [message #355640 is a reply to message #355639] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 12:57 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
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WE know this, the synthetic oils are considerably better than the
conventional.
Yes, it can leak more, but your getting more protection and dirtying your
drive way.
On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 10:10 AM James Hupy via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> For the application of the slow engine speed ranges that our coaches
> operate in, 1800 - 3200 rpm. 20w - 50 is a good call. Need a bit higher
> viscosity because of high bearing loads, and large throttle openings at
> relatively low rpms. Lots of heat in those piston crowns.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon
>
> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 10:03 AM John R. Lebetski via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> J.R. If GM says 10W-30 then what is your logic that 20W-50 is “better”?
>> Seems it would exasperate the gravity drain back issues. Most builders
>> today don’t like heavy oils as they pull less heat from gearings and heat
>> kills soft bearings
>> --
>> John Lebetski
>> Woodstock, IL
>> 77 Eleganza II
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: Engine lubrication [message #355646 is a reply to message #355626] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 18:04 |
tgeiger
Messages: 518
Registered: February 2006
Location: kansas city
Karma: -1
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Ok, sounds like I want to go get some synthetic for the oil change.
Thanks all,
TG
Tom Geiger
76 Eleganza II
KCMO
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| Re: Engine lubrication [message #355647 is a reply to message #355626] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 18:34 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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James Hupy I disagree. Viscosity is the resistance to flow. With high heat loads you want lower viscosity oil as more flow over the bearings transfers more heat then on to remove it at the oil cooler. Viscosity and film strength are not the same thing.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Engine lubrication [message #355649 is a reply to message #355626] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 19:14 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Here is an article entitled "Motor Oil Engineering Test Data".
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
It is a long read with lots of repetition. Tests were run on 239 different oils or oils with after market additives. Oils are ranked by their ability to resist wear. An interesting read as most of the higher ranked oils are of relatively low viscosity. 5w30's, 0w20's etc. Here is a copy/paste of a section written about viscosity.
SECTION 2 – MOTOR OIL VISCOSITY SELECTION
THE BENEFITS OF USING THlINNER OIL:
• Thinner oil flows quicker at cold start-up to begin lubricating critical engine components much more quickly than thicker oil can. Most engine wear takes place during cold start-up before oil flow can reach all the components (the longer an engine has been sitting, the more of a concern this becomes), and during warm-up while the oil is still thicker and not flowing as freely as it does during normal hot operating temperature. So, quicker flowing thinner oil will help reduce start-up and warm-up engine wear, which is actually reducing wear overall.
• The more free flowing thinner oil during cold start-up and warm-up, is also much less likely to cause the oil filter bypass to open up, compared to thicker oil. Of course if the bypass opened up, that would allow unfiltered oil to be pumped through the engine. The colder the ambient temperature, and the more rpm used when the engine is cold, the more important this becomes.
• Thinner oil also flows more freely when fully warmed-up to normal operating temperatures. And oil FLOW is lubrication, but oil pressure is NOT lubrication. Oil pressure is only a measurement of resistance to flow. Running thicker oil just to up the oil pressure is the wrong thing to do, because that only reduces oil flow/lubrication. Oil pressure in and of itself, is NOT what we are after.
• The more free flowing thinner oil will also drain back to the oil pan quicker than thicker oil. So, thinner oil can help maintain a higher oil level in the oil pan during operation, which keeps the oil pump pickup from possibly sucking air during braking and cornering.
•The old rule of thumb for desired oil pressure, that we should have at least 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm, pertains to, and is highly recommended for High Performance and Racing engines. Engine bearing clearances are primarily what determines the oil viscosity required for any given engine. (NOTE: Viscosity does NOT determine an oil’s wear protection capability, like many people think. Wear protection capability is determined by an oil’s additive package, which contains the extreme pressure anti-wear components. That is why 5W30 oils can perform so much better than thicker oils in my wear protection capability testing). But, whatever the bearing clearance, for High Performance and Racing engines, it is best to run the thinnest oil we can, that will still maintain at least the old rule of thumb oil pressure, even if that means using a high volume oil pump to achieve that. A high volume oil pump/thinner oil combo is much preferred over running a standard volume oil pump/thicker oil combo. Because oil “flow” is our goal for ideal oiling, NOT simply high oil pressure. So, one of the benefits of running a high volume oil pump, is that it will allow us to enjoy all the benefits of running thinner oil, while still maintaining desirable oil pressure.
I have been using two of the higher ranked oils on this list in my personal vehicles including our GMC. I have been very happy with the performance of 0w40 Mobile 1 (ranked #7) used in my Cad 500 powered GMCMH. I am thinking about going to (ranked #4) 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability, dexos 1 – Gen 2, API SN “Plus”, synthetic (green bottle), because of it's higher wear rating. Both of these oils are available at local Walmarts at very reasonable pricing.
Just another way of looking at things. So, the above is FYI and all Just My Humble Opinion backed by a few facts that I found on the Web. Other opinions will vary.
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
[Updated on: Sat, 13 June 2020 19:24] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine lubrication [message #355650 is a reply to message #355649] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 19:47 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Shafts and bushings are kept separated from each other by something known
as "a fluid wedge" created by the shearing away of oils by the unequal
speed of both surfaces. Viscosity has a bit to do with this, but I am not
sure just how much. Experts have never, ever agreed on this. I used to run
10w-30 H.D. Valvoline Dino oil in my 403 in my Royale, and my low oil
pressure at idle always bothered me. So I switched to 20w - 50 H.D.
Valvoline Dino oil. Much higher now at 140,000 miles on the clock.
Engines in current applications were manufactured with synthetics with
low viscosity in mind. Their clearances are wayyy tightened up compared to
our cast iron dinosaurs. They also rev a lot, lot higher. Over 2 1/2 times
higher than our Oldsmobiles do.
So, most of the writers for road and track and other similar
publications tout synthetic oils, because the companies advertise heavily
in their magazine. If you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't have a
job very long. Synthetics do a bang up job in engines designed for them. No
argument from me on that point.
Like I have always said. Opinions Vary. I appreciate your viewpoint.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 5:15 PM Larry via Gmclist
wrote:
> Here is an article entitled "Motor Oil Engineering Test Data". It is a
> long read with lots of repetition. Tests were run on 239 different oils or
> oils
> with after market additives. Oils are ranked by their ability to resist
> wear. An interesting read as most of the higher ranked oils are of
> relatively
> low viscosity. 5w30's, 0w20's etc. Here is a copy/paste of a section
> written about viscosity.
>
> SECTION 2 – MOTOR OIL VISCOSITY SELECTION
>
> THE BENEFITS OF USING THINNER OIL:
>
> • Thinner oil flows quicker at cold start-up to begin lubricating critical
> engine components much more quickly than thicker oil can. Most engine
> wear takes place during cold start-up before oil flow can reach all the
> components (the longer an engine has been sitting, the more of a concern
> this
> becomes), and during warm-up while the oil is still thicker and not
> flowing as freely as it does during normal hot operating temperature. So,
> quicker
> flowing thinner oil will help reduce start-up and warm-up engine wear,
> which is actually reducing wear overall.
>
> • The more free flowing thinner oil during cold start-up and warm-up, is
> also much less likely to cause the oil filter bypass to open up, compared
> to thicker oil. Of course if the bypass opened up, that would allow
> unfiltered oil to be pumped through the engine. The colder the ambient
> temperature, and the more rpm used when the engine is cold, the more
> important this becomes.
>
> • Thinner oil also flows more freely when fully warmed-up to normal
> operating temperatures. And oil FLOW is lubrication, but oil pressure is NOT
> lubrication. Oil pressure is only a measurement of resistance to flow.
> Running thicker oil just to up the oil pressure is the wrong thing to do,
> because that only reduces oil flow/lubrication. Oil pressure in and of
> itself, is NOT what we are after.
>
> • The more free flowing thinner oil will also drain back to the oil pan
> quicker than thicker oil. So, thinner oil can help maintain a higher oil
> level in the oil pan during operation, which keeps the oil pump pickup
> from possibly sucking air during braking and cornering.
>
> •The old rule of thumb for desired oil pressure, that we should have at
> least 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm, pertains to, and is highly recommended for
> High Performance and Racing engines. Engine bearing clearances are
> primarily what determines the oil viscosity required for any given engine.
> (NOTE:
> Viscosity does NOT determine an oil’s wear protection capability, like
> many people think. Wear protection capability is determined by an oil’s
> additive package, which contains the extreme pressure anti-wear
> components. That is why 5W30 oils can perform so much better than thicker
> oils in my
> wear protection capability testing). But, whatever the bearing clearance,
> for High Performance and Racing engines, it is best to run the thinnest oil
> we can, that will still maintain at least the old rule of thumb oil
> pressure, even if that means using a high volume oil pump to achieve that.
> A high
> volume oil pump/thinner oil combo is much preferred over running a
> standard volume oil pump/thicker oil combo. Because oil “flow” is our goal
> for
> ideal oiling, NOT simply high oil pressure. So, one of the benefits of
> running a high volume oil pump, is that it will allow us to enjoy all the
> benefits of running thinner oil, while still maintaining desirable oil
> pressure.
>
>
>
> I have been using two of the higher ranked oils on this list in my
> personal vehicles including our GMC. I have been very happy with the
> performance of
> 0w40 Mobile 1 (ranked #7) used in my Cad 500 powered GMCMH. I am thinking
> about going to (ranked #4) 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability, dexos 1
> – Gen 2, API SN “Plus”, synthetic (green bottle), because of it's higher
> wear rating. Both of these oils are available at local Walmarts at very
> reasonable pricing.
>
> So, the above is all Just My Humble Opinion backed by a few facts that I
> found on the Web. Other opinions will vary.
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine lubrication [message #355653 is a reply to message #355628] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 19:51 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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This topic can go on till the cows come home as there is only a small
difference as to slight chang in viscosity.
Just use sun oil and worry about other more important things.
On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 5:41 PM James Hupy via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Shafts and bushings are kept separated from each other by something known
> as "a fluid wedge" created by the shearing away of oils by the unequal
> speed of both surfaces. Viscosity has a bit to do with this, but I am not
> sure just how much. Experts have never, ever agreed on this. I used to run
> 10w-30 H.D. Valvoline Dino oil in my 403 in my Royale, and my low oil
> pressure at idle always bothered me. So I switched to 20w - 50 H.D.
> Valvoline Dino oil. Much higher now at 140,000 miles on the clock.
> Engines in current applications were manufactured with synthetics with
> low viscosity in mind. Their clearances are wayyy tightened up compared to
> our cast iron dinosaurs. They also rev a lot, lot higher. Over 2 1/2 times
> higher than our Oldsmobiles do.
> So, most of the writers for road and track and other similar
> publications tout synthetic oils, because the companies advertise heavily
> in their magazine. If you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't have a
> job very long. Synthetics do a bang up job in engines designed for them. No
> argument from me on that point.
> Like I have always said. Opinions Vary. I appreciate your viewpoint.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon
>
> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 5:15 PM Larry via Gmclist
> wrote:
>
>> Here is an article entitled "Motor Oil Engineering Test Data". It is a
>> long read with lots of repetition. Tests were run on 239 different oils
> or
>> oils
>> with after market additives. Oils are ranked by their ability to resist
>> wear. An interesting read as most of the higher ranked oils are of
>> relatively
>> low viscosity. 5w30's, 0w20's etc. Here is a copy/paste of a section
>> written about viscosity.
>>
>> SECTION 2 – MOTOR OIL VISCOSITY SELECTION
>>
>> THE BENEFITS OF USING THINNER OIL:
>>
>> • Thinner oil flows quicker at cold start-up to begin lubricating
> critical
>> engine components much more quickly than thicker oil can. Most engine
>> wear takes place during cold start-up before oil flow can reach all the
>> components (the longer an engine has been sitting, the more of a concern
>> this
>> becomes), and during warm-up while the oil is still thicker and not
>> flowing as freely as it does during normal hot operating temperature. So,
>> quicker
>> flowing thinner oil will help reduce start-up and warm-up engine wear,
>> which is actually reducing wear overall.
>>
>> • The more free flowing thinner oil during cold start-up and warm-up, is
>> also much less likely to cause the oil filter bypass to open up, compared
>> to thicker oil. Of course if the bypass opened up, that would allow
>> unfiltered oil to be pumped through the engine. The colder the ambient
>> temperature, and the more rpm used when the engine is cold, the more
>> important this becomes.
>>
>> • Thinner oil also flows more freely when fully warmed-up to normal
>> operating temperatures. And oil FLOW is lubrication, but oil pressure is
> NOT
>> lubrication. Oil pressure is only a measurement of resistance to flow.
>> Running thicker oil just to up the oil pressure is the wrong thing to do,
>> because that only reduces oil flow/lubrication. Oil pressure in and of
>> itself, is NOT what we are after.
>>
>> • The more free flowing thinner oil will also drain back to the oil pan
>> quicker than thicker oil. So, thinner oil can help maintain a higher oil
>> level in the oil pan during operation, which keeps the oil pump pickup
>> from possibly sucking air during braking and cornering.
>>
>> •The old rule of thumb for desired oil pressure, that we should have at
>> least 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm, pertains to, and is highly recommended
> for
>> High Performance and Racing engines. Engine bearing clearances are
>> primarily what determines the oil viscosity required for any given
> engine.
>> (NOTE:
>> Viscosity does NOT determine an oil’s wear protection capability, like
>> many people think. Wear protection capability is determined by an oil’s
>> additive package, which contains the extreme pressure anti-wear
>> components. That is why 5W30 oils can perform so much better than thicker
>> oils in my
>> wear protection capability testing). But, whatever the bearing clearance,
>> for High Performance and Racing engines, it is best to run the thinnest
> oil
>> we can, that will still maintain at least the old rule of thumb oil
>> pressure, even if that means using a high volume oil pump to achieve
> that.
>> A high
>> volume oil pump/thinner oil combo is much preferred over running a
>> standard volume oil pump/thicker oil combo. Because oil “flow” is our
> goal
>> for
>> ideal oiling, NOT simply high oil pressure. So, one of the benefits of
>> running a high volume oil pump, is that it will allow us to enjoy all the
>> benefits of running thinner oil, while still maintaining desirable oil
>> pressure.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been using two of the higher ranked oils on this list in my
>> personal vehicles including our GMC. I have been very happy with the
>> performance of
>> 0w40 Mobile 1 (ranked #7) used in my Cad 500 powered GMCMH. I am thinking
>> about going to (ranked #4) 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability, dexos
> 1
>> – Gen 2, API SN “Plus”, synthetic (green bottle), because of it's higher
>> wear rating. Both of these oils are available at local Walmarts at very
>> reasonable pricing.
>>
>> So, the above is all Just My Humble Opinion backed by a few facts that I
>> found on the Web. Other opinions will vary.
>> --
>> Larry
>> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
>> Menomonie, WI.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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