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hei cap orientation [message #328379] Thu, 18 January 2018 23:10 Go to next message
cadelec is currently offline  cadelec   Australia
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i am trying to get my coach running after sitting for about 4 years. it is idling rough and backfires under load.has hei dist and has been converted to throttlebody fuel injection. i was going to pull the plugs and do a compression test but noticed that the cap is 180 degrees out. it was obviously working ok when i bought it and i havnt touched it since getting it here . just would like to know the reason for this. i assume this is because it is a dist. out of a car and the cap has not been notched to spin 180 degrees. am i correct

Trevor Brisbane Australia Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores) 71 Cadillac Eldo Convert 58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
Re: hei cap orientation [message #328380 is a reply to message #328379] Fri, 19 January 2018 04:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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The cap has a notch in it so the cap can only go on one way and seat fully on the distributor. I have seen people actually get those caps installed wrong and a couple of those spring retainers latched while th cap is not fully seated. If it is really 180 degrees out, then someone in the past installed the distributor with the rotor in the wrong position and then rotated the distributor body to match the rotor. Or they the wires on the cap to match.

If it has run correctly in the past and you have not loosened the distributor, I would not mess with it now. It will run just fine the way it is. There is no reason for it to have changed. I am working on one here right now that someone installed about 30 degrees out. It bugs me when I look at it, but it is really not a concern to the actual running of the engine. If I end up pulling the distributor for some other reason, then I'll reinstall the distributor in the correct orientation. Otherwise it will stay just like it is now. I have other more important things to fix.



Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: hei cap orientation [message #328382 is a reply to message #328379] Fri, 19 January 2018 07:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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cadelec wrote on Fri, 19 January 2018 00:10
i am trying to get my coach running after sitting for about 4 years. it is idling rough and backfires under load.has hei dist and has been converted to throttlebody fuel injection. i was going to pull the plugs and do a compression test but noticed that the cap is 180 degrees out. it was obviously working ok when i bought it and i havnt touched it since getting it here . just would like to know the reason for this. i assume this is because it is a dist. out of a car and the cap has not been notched to spin 180 degrees. am i correct

Trevor,

While you are under there, check for a 5-7 cross. This does not have to be wires switched. If 5 and 7 are too close together, this can happen.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation [message #328383 is a reply to message #328379] Fri, 19 January 2018 07:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
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Trevor,

After being idle that long, there's a very good chance the centrifugal
weights in the distributor have frozen up with rust. Remove the cap and
check/lubricate them.

Ken H.


On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Trevor Pordage
wrote:

> i am trying to get my coach running after sitting for about 4 years. it is
> idling rough and backfires under load.has hei dist and has been converted
> to throttlebody fuel injection. i was going to pull the plugs and do a
> compression test but noticed that the cap is 180 degrees out. it was
> obviously
> working ok when i bought it and i havnt touched it since getting it here .
> just would like to know the reason for this. i assume this is because it is
> a dist. out of a car and the cap has not been notched to spin 180 degrees.
> am i correct
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: hei cap orientation [message #328385 is a reply to message #328379] Fri, 19 January 2018 09:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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To elaborate on what Ken H said if your dist has not been serviced then the original lube has offgassed and is now glue. They need to be pulled and disassembled so the stiction can be cleaned off the concentic shafts and relubed. Perfect time to inspect/replace worn parts and reclock correctly. If you are not running a magcore spiral wire set you need to.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: hei cap orientation [message #328386 is a reply to message #328379] Fri, 19 January 2018 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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I also reapply the white heatsink compound under module as that dries and shrinks as well.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation [message #328390 is a reply to message #328386] Fri, 19 January 2018 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jimk is currently offline  jimk   United States
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Back fire through throttle is mainly a lean condition , so make sure the
MAP sensor and TPS is hooked and the fuel pressure is wher it need o be.

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 7:05 AM, John R. Lebetski
wrote:

> I also reapply the white heatsink compound under module as that dries and
> shrinks as well.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
>
>
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Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation [message #328391 is a reply to message #328382] Fri, 19 January 2018 14:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ljdavick is currently offline  ljdavick   United States
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Sounds like bad gas to me. After my coach sat for over a year this happened to me.

> On Jan 19, 2018, at 5:24 AM, Matt Colie wrote:
>
> cadelec wrote on Fri, 19 January 2018 00:10
>> i am trying to get my coach running after sitting for about 4 years. it is idling rough and backfires under load.has hei dist and has been
>> converted to throttlebody fuel injection. i was going to pull the plugs and do a compression test but noticed that the cap is 180 degrees out. it
>> was obviously working ok when i bought it and i havnt touched it since getting it here . just would like to know the reason for this. i assume this
>> is because it is a dist. out of a car and the cap has not been notched to spin 180 degrees. am i correct
>
> Trevor,
>
> While you are under there, check for a 5-7 cross. This does not have to be wires switched. If 5 and 7 are too close together, this can happen.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
Re: hei cap orientation [message #328392 is a reply to message #328380] Fri, 19 January 2018 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cadelec is currently offline  cadelec   Australia
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It has run correctly in the past so I am not going to touch the distributor. I just read something about having to file a notch in the cap to get the orientation correct. It appears that Bobby Moore did not do this as the plug markings on the cap are 180 degrees out I just wanted to confirm this

Trevor Brisbane Australia Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores) 71 Cadillac Eldo Convert 58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
Re: hei cap orientation [message #328393 is a reply to message #328392] Fri, 19 January 2018 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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I guess I'm not understanding. Is the vacuum advance on the right side (US passenger side) when standing behind the engine? Is the power plug in the cap also on the right side?

Now that I asked the questions I need to go look at mine. From memory I believe mine are both on the right side. Do NOT trust my memory.


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation [message #328394 is a reply to message #328383] Fri, 19 January 2018 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
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Trevor, the numbers on the secondary conductor retainer are usually
included on genuine GM cap components, but not always on aftermarket parts.
What has happened in your case is that the engine was not at top dead
center, compression stroke, when the distributor was installed. So, the
installer rewired the plug wires in the cap instead of removing the
distributor and rotating the engine 360 degrees. If you want the numbers to
agree with the wire placement, the distributor should be removed, the
engine rotated clockwise 360 degrees, and the cap rewired to coincide with
the numbers on the cap. OR, YOU COULD JUST LEAVE IT ALONE, AND IGNORE THE
NUMBERS ON THE CAP. Just make sure that the mechanical and vacuum advance
mechanisms are functional and that basic static timing is set at about 8°
before tdc.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Jan 19, 2018 3:17 PM, "Ken Burton" wrote:

I guess I'm not understanding. Is the vacuum advance on the right side (US
passenger side) when standing behind the engine? Is the power plug in the
cap also on the right side?

Now that I asked the questions I need to go look at mine. From memory I
believe mine are both on the right side. Do NOT trust my memory.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

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Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation [message #328396 is a reply to message #328394] Fri, 19 January 2018 23:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cadelec is currently offline  cadelec   Australia
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Thanks James

just to correct a few things i had a better look today and it appears that i am only 90 degrees out
my setup has no vacuum advance as it is running EFI with electronic spark control
i have no knowledge of efi or these hei distributors so i am trying to find out how this all fits together
here is a link to a photo http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/uploads/42104/20180120_140014.jpg
as this was running correctly previously i do not want to touch it but i would like to be able to understand why it is set up this way
i assume by your response below that this dist was installed incorrectly and rather than remove and reinstall the wires were just relocated and therefore the cap numbers do not match the plug numbers

James Hupy wrote on Sat, 20 January 2018 09:39
Trevor, the numbers on the secondary conductor retainer are usually
included on genuine GM cap components, but not always on aftermarket parts.
What has happened in your case is that the engine was not at top dead
center, compression stroke, when the distributor was installed. So, the
installer rewired the plug wires in the cap instead of removing the
distributor and rotating the engine 360 degrees. If you want the numbers to
agree with the wire placement, the distributor should be removed, the
engine rotated clockwise 360 degrees, and the cap rewired to coincide with
the numbers on the cap. OR, YOU COULD JUST LEAVE IT ALONE, AND IGNORE THE
NUMBERS ON THE CAP. Just make sure that the mechanical and vacuum advance
mechanisms are functional and that basic static timing is set at about 8°
before tdc.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Jan 19, 2018 3:17 PM, "Ken Burton" wrote:

I guess I'm not understanding. Is the vacuum advance on the right side (US
passenger side) when standing behind the engine? Is the power plug in the
cap also on the right side?

Now that I asked the questions I need to go look at mine. From memory I
believe mine are both on the right side. Do NOT trust my memory.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

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Trevor Brisbane Australia Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores) 71 Cadillac Eldo Convert 58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation [message #328397 is a reply to message #328396] Sat, 20 January 2018 04:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
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Trevor,

Comparing your photo and this photo I agree:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gary-rockwell-aluminum-intake-manifold-installation/p44402-running.html

The power connection on your dizzy is rotated 90 degrees counter clockwise as compared to the dizzy above.

However, if the plug wires are connected to the correct plug as per the maintenance manual I don't think it makes a difference?

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Trevor Pordage
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 4:55 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation

Thanks James

just to correct a few things i had a better look today and it appears that i am only 90 degrees out
my setup has no vacuum advance as it is running EFI with electronic spark control
i have no knowledge of efi or these hei distributors so i am trying to find out how this all fits together
here is a link to a photo http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/uploads/42104/20180120_140014.jpg
as this was running correctly previously i do not want to touch it but i would like to be able to understand why it is set up this way i assume by your response below that this dist was installed incorrectly and rather than remove and reinstall the wires were just relocated and therefore the cap numbers do not match the plug numbers



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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation [message #328398 is a reply to message #328397] Sat, 20 January 2018 10:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
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Senior Member
Trevor, as there are numerous fuel injection systems out there, I cannot be
too specific, BUT, in the case of the Howell system with the Embedded
Locker Circuit or EBL, there is a 7 pin electronic module in the
distributor, and all advance changes take place within the computer, and
NOT the distributor. So, what I cautioned you about vacuum and mechanical
advance doesn't apply to your situation. Base timing IS critical, however,
as the computer needs a starting point to work from. Some BIN files use 0°
base timing, and some use 8°-10° base timing. I don't know exactly what you
have, so I cannot be certain. If your plug wires are on the correct plugs
and corresponding cap connections, it matters very little what the
distributor orientation is. Pretty much, if the primary wiring harness fits
the cap connections, it should work well where you have it now.
The only distributor that I ever saw that mattered where it was
oriented was the old air cooled VW with the upright fan housing. The number
3 plug wire was retarded 9° from the other plugs to compensate for the heat
from the oil cooler that flowed over the number 3 cylinder. The cam that
opened the points was ground with a 9° retard. If you put the distributor
in wrong, number 3 would run hot. Many people who worked on air cooled VW's
did not know that. VW eventually moved the oil cooler and supplied it with
a different source of cooling air to correct that on the bus engines with
upright fan housings. The pancake engines used remote oil coolers, so they
did not retard number 3.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or

On Jan 20, 2018 2:03 AM, "Rob Mueller" wrote:

> Trevor,
>
> Comparing your photo and this photo I agree:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gary-rockwell-aluminum-
> intake-manifold-installation/p44402-running.html
>
> The power connection on your dizzy is rotated 90 degrees counter clockwise
> as compared to the dizzy above.
>
> However, if the plug wires are connected to the correct plug as per the
> maintenance manual I don't think it makes a difference?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Trevor Pordage
> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 4:55 PM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation
>
> Thanks James
>
> just to correct a few things i had a better look today and it appears
> that i am only 90 degrees out
> my setup has no vacuum advance as it is running EFI with electronic spark
> control
> i have no knowledge of efi or these hei distributors so i am trying to
> find out how this all fits together
> here is a link to a photo http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/
> photos/uploads/42104/20180120_140014.jpg
> as this was running correctly previously i do not want to touch it but i
> would like to be able to understand why it is set up this way i assume by
> your response below that this dist was installed incorrectly and rather
> than remove and reinstall the wires were just relocated and therefore the
> cap numbers do not match the plug numbers
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Re: hei cap orientation [message #328399 is a reply to message #328379] Sat, 20 January 2018 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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Location: Hebron, Indiana
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Senior Member
I haven't seen that snap on top on the distributor cap used for years. Looking closely at it I see that it is snapped on 180 degrees out of position. Looking at the wires it appears that they were installed to match the numbers on that snap on piece. (180 out)

To fix it I see five steps that need to be done:

1. Start the engine. With the vacuum hose disconnected and plugged, look at the current ignition timing with a timing light. (I always paint the mark with white out to make it easy to see.) Record or mentally note the exact position. Depending on the distributor installed it should be somewhere between 8 and 12 BTDC. Most are 8.

2. With engine off, rotate the engine until it is at TDC. Remove cap and verify that the rotor is pointing at #1. If it isn't, rotate the engine one complete turn to TDC again and the rotor should now be pointing at #1.

3. Remove the distributor and reinstall it with the rotor pointing to the lower left approximately 280 degrees CCW where #1 should be and rotate the distributor frame approximately 80 degrees CW do the power plug is on the US passenger side.

4. Remove the that cap snap on lid and start moving wires. All wires should be re-plugged 180 degrees from where they are now.

5. Start the engine and set the timing with a light to where it was before you started this project in step #1. Tighten the distributor hold down bolt.

OR

LEAVE IT ALONE AND IT WILL RUN JUST FINE the way it is.


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: hei cap orientation [message #328401 is a reply to message #328379] Sat, 20 January 2018 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RF_Burns is currently offline  RF_Burns   Canada
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Senior Member
You mentioned you have fuel injection and it has been sitting for 4 years. So another cause of the rough idle and maybe the backfiring could be sticking fuel injectors. I had a one of the injectors on an Ebay purchased Rochester TBI that would stick closed causing the engine to run on 1/2 the cylinders. The local injector guy tried 3 times to get it going, but each time it would stick closed, so I finally bought a couple of Standard Products injectors.

To test them, run the engine for 20 seconds or so that there is fuel in the TBI and shut the engine down. Then pull the power plug from the coil so the engine can't start and pull the air cleaner off so you can look down the throttle. Turn the key and you should hear the fuel pump start for a few seconds to build pressure then look down the TBI. You should not see any fuel leaking from the injectors as they should be closed. Then crank the engine for a few seconds and you should see an equal amount of fuel squirt on the throttle plates of both barrels. If so, the injectors passed this simple test. Shut off the key and plug the power connector back into the distributor cap.

If you got a leaky injector or the amount of fuel sprayed is not in balance, remove the injectors and get them cleaned, or replace them.

An injector cleaning place can test them to be sure they are flowing an equal amount of fuel. Remember the narrowband O2 sensor only measures the fuel mixture on one bank of cylinders, so they can be out of balance leaving one bank rich or lean. A wideband sensor is generally installed after the exhaust Y connection and so measures both sides.

Just my farmboy mechanic way of seeing things.


Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
Re: hei cap orientation [message #328403 is a reply to message #328401] Sat, 20 January 2018 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cadelec is currently offline  cadelec   Australia
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Location: Brisbane Australia
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Senior Member
thanks jim i have a turbo city EFI system which is no lunger supported i do have a little bit of documentation from the PO but not much. it does say in one part that there is an ignition module but this only has 4 wires but i assume it controls all the timing.

interesting about the VW distributor

Rob and Ken Thanks also the wires are infact in the same orientation and match up with the firing order i will leave it the way it is i just need to make note not to follow the numbers on the retaining ring

thanks bruce that is the kind of diagnosis advice i need today i will try and do that and maybe drain the tanks and put in new fuel



Trevor Brisbane Australia Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores) 71 Cadillac Eldo Convert 58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation [message #328410 is a reply to message #328403] Sat, 20 January 2018 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jimk is currently offline  jimk   United States
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If it has a 4 pin module, there is NO distributor timig control by the ECM.


On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Trevor Pordage
wrote:

> thanks jim i have a turbo city EFI system which is no lunger supported i
> do have a little bit of documentation from the PO but not much. it does say
> in one part that there is an ignition module but this only has 4 wires but
> i assume it controls all the timing.
>
> interesting about the VW distributor
>
> Rob and Ken Thanks also the wires are infact in the same orientation and
> match up with the firing order i will leave it the way it is i just need to
> make note not to follow the numbers on the retaining ring
>
> thanks bruce that is the kind of diagnosis advice i need today i will try
> and do that and maybe drain the tanks and put in new fuel
>
>
> --
> Trevor
> Brisbane Australia
> Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores)
> 71 Cadillac Eldo Convert
> 58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation [message #328413 is a reply to message #328410] Sat, 20 January 2018 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cadelec is currently offline  cadelec   Australia
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Senior Member
hi jim this is a turbo city EFI setup i have attached links below relating to the documentation i have got
unfortunatly turbo city have stopped support so i am trying to work out what i have got and how it works


http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showfull.php?photo=64478

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showfull.php?photo=64477



jimk wrote on Sun, 21 January 2018 09:21
If it has a 4 pin module, there is NO distributor timig control by the ECM.


On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Trevor Pordage
wrote:

> thanks jim i have a turbo city EFI system which is no lunger supported i
> do have a little bit of documentation from the PO but not much. it does say
> in one part that there is an ignition module but this only has 4 wires but
> i assume it controls all the timing.
>
> interesting about the VW distributor
>
> Rob and Ken Thanks also the wires are infact in the same orientation and
> match up with the firing order i will leave it the way it is i just need to
> make note not to follow the numbers on the retaining ring
>
> thanks bruce that is the kind of diagnosis advice i need today i will try
> and do that and maybe drain the tanks and put in new fuel
>
>
> --
> Trevor
> Brisbane Australia
> Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores)
> 71 Cadillac Eldo Convert
> 58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
>
>
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Trevor Brisbane Australia Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores) 71 Cadillac Eldo Convert 58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
Re: [GMCnet] hei cap orientation [message #328414 is a reply to message #328413] Sat, 20 January 2018 19:40 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
cadelec is currently offline  cadelec   Australia
Messages: 303
Registered: September 2011
Location: Brisbane Australia
Karma: 1
Senior Member
the documentation is loose pages of printed matter in a folder that is in a very unorganized state i have just found some more pages relating to the wirng diagram which shows a 7pin ignition module that goes in the distributor the 4 pin ESC module is attached to the firewall so it appears my spark is controlled by the computer

thanks everone for your help i will continue with the puzzle


Trevor Brisbane Australia Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores) 71 Cadillac Eldo Convert 58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
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