Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... (New Owner planning on full time boondocking in need of power solutions......)
| *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... [message #327078] |
Thu, 14 December 2017 00:34  |
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DrMeznik
Messages: 9
Registered: December 2017
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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Okay, so, I'm a new owner so please don't beat me up for dumb questions. I'm planning on full timing in this rig with mostly boondocking.
I wanted to add 3 Odyssey PC1800-ft and hard-wire an inverter to the coach's electrical system. So, I'm not running a bunch of extension cords and power strips like I'm Nomadic Fanatic or something.
If I want a new outlet, or something new I'd like it to be hardwired into the breaker box (call me crazy). Or daisychained if it isn't much of a load.
The original idea was to expand the house battery setup. And hard-wire an inverter into the coach's electrical system. Add an auto transfer switch, a smart charger and the MPPT solar charger.
*Of course, update the fuse box and whatnot
The problems with that is that it's 5 boxes and there's not redundancy. So, I leave something on and drain my batteries completely dead, I cannot start my generator.
So, my brilliant idea is to run a separate battery bank and scale down the house battery as mainly a starting battery for the generator.
Then, I would pigtail a GoPower Inverter/Charger/Auto Transfer Switch into the generator output. Allow the magic box to charge my batteries/ power my coach when the generator is on and use as a inverter when it is off....... and this is how I die in an electrical fire.
I don't know how to do shore power with this dumb idea.
I'm not in possession of the motorhome, yet. It'll probably be first of the year before it gets back to me but I wanted to get my thoughts going in the right direction.
I really don't want to run extension cords everywhere or have different outlets for inverter power and shore/ generator power.
Is there a best way to run an inverter into the main electrical system of the coach?
What are my options?
Is there a way to get a better result for less money?
I'm looking at $3500 for this system.
1978 Royale,
26 Foot,
403 Engine,
Quadrabags,
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| Re: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... [message #327080 is a reply to message #327078] |
Thu, 14 December 2017 01:02  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
We don't beat people up around here at worst we point them to the manuals in a subtle way. :-)
I'm not going to comment on your electrical questions as I am seriously electrically challenged, which most people here can attest
to! :-) AGAIN
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of austenm606@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 5:35 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions.....
Okay, so, I'm a new owner so please don't beat me up for dumb questions. I'm planning on full timing in this rig with mostly
boondocking.
I wanted to add 3 Odyssey http://bit.ly/2Aonfek and hard-wire an inverter to the coach's electrical system. So, I'm not running a
bunch of extension cords and power strips like I'm Nomadic Fanatic or something.
If I want a new outlet, or something new I'd like it to be hardwired into the breaker box (call me crazy). Or daisychained if it
isn't much of a load.
The original idea was to expand the house battery setup. And hard-wire an inverter into the coach's electrical system. Add an auto
transfer switch, a smart charger and the MPPT solar charger.
*Of course, update the fuse box and whatnot
The problems with that is that it's 5 boxes and there's not redundancy. So, I leave something on and drain my batteries completely
dead, I cannot start my generator.
So, my brilliant idea is to run a separate battery bank and scale down the house battery as mainly a starting battery for the
generator.
Then, I would pigtail a http://bit.ly/2CfxOS2 into the generator output. Allow the magic box to charge my batteries/ power my coach
when the generator is on and use as a inverter when it is off....... and this is how I die in an electrical fire.
I don't know how to do shore power with this dumb idea.
I'm not in possession of the motorhome, yet. It'll probably be first of the year before it gets back to me but I wanted to get my
thoughts going in the right direction.
I really don't want to run extension cords everywhere or have different outlets for inverter power and shore/ generator power.
Is there a best way to run an inverter into the main electrical system of the coach?
What are my options?
Is there a way to get a better result for less money?
I'm looking at $3500 for this system.
--
1977 Eleganza II,
26 Foot,
403 Engine,
Full time boondocking,
New Owner with Plans (deadly last words),
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... [message #327082 is a reply to message #327078] |
Thu, 14 December 2017 03:30 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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No, we don’t beat up people even if they ask the same question twice (thankfully!)
I think a very good primer is the article by Gary Bunzer from the FMC Magazine (???) Balance of Power where he talks about battery configuration as well as load, etc. http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/5945/battery_balance_jan2012.pdf
I hope this helps!
Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, CA
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Distributor
> On Dec 13, 2017, at 10:34 PM, austenm606@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Okay, so, I'm a new owner so please don't beat me up for dumb questions. I'm planning on full timing in this rig with mostly boondocking.
>
> I wanted to add 3 Odyssey http://bit.ly/2Aonfek and hard-wire an inverter to the coach's electrical system. So, I'm not running a bunch of extension
> cords and power strips like I'm Nomadic Fanatic or something.
>
> If I want a new outlet, or something new I'd like it to be hardwired into the breaker box (call me crazy). Or daisychained if it isn't much of a
> load.
>
> The original idea was to expand the house battery setup. And hard-wire an inverter into the coach's electrical system. Add an auto transfer switch, a
> smart charger and the MPPT solar charger.
>
> *Of course, update the fuse box and whatnot
>
> The problems with that is that it's 5 boxes and there's not redundancy. So, I leave something on and drain my batteries completely dead, I cannot
> start my generator.
>
> So, my brilliant idea is to run a separate battery bank and scale down the house battery as mainly a starting battery for the generator.
>
> Then, I would pigtail a http://bit.ly/2CfxOS2 into the generator output. Allow the magic box to charge my batteries/ power my coach when the generator
> is on and use as a inverter when it is off....... and this is how I die in an electrical fire.
>
> I don't know how to do shore power with this dumb idea.
>
> I'm not in possession of the motorhome, yet. It'll probably be first of the year before it gets back to me but I wanted to get my thoughts going in
> the right direction.
>
> I really don't want to run extension cords everywhere or have different outlets for inverter power and shore/ generator power.
>
> Is there a best way to run an inverter into the main electrical system of the coach?
>
> What are my options?
>
> Is there a way to get a better result for less money?
>
> I'm looking at $3500 for this system.
> --
> 1977 Eleganza II,
>
> 26 Foot,
>
> 403 Engine,
>
> Full time boondocking,
>
> New Owner with Plans (deadly last words),
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... [message #327083 is a reply to message #327078] |
Thu, 14 December 2017 05:48 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Too many people jump into designing a electrical solution without doing the initial planing to determine what they really need. These people tend to ignore the actual electrical consumption of the items they will be using. The coach was designed with most items using 12 volts DC with only high power consuming items running on 120VAC. Also any storage will will be 12 VDC so running high power items through an inverter at 120 VAC incurs additional losses.
So my suggestions are:
1. Keep all lighting, furnace, and water pump on 12VDC. I also like TV on 12VDC.
2. Reduce your power consumption by installing LEDs everywhere.
3. Run your refrigerator on propane.
4. Do not plan on running the high power use 120VAC items like refrigerator, AC, stove, coffee maker, water heater, and Microwave unless you are plugged in or are going to install a TON of extra high capacity batteries. You could use the Onan for these at a fuel consumption of something a little less that 1 gallon per hour.
After you figure out your daily power consumption, the next thing is to figure out how you are going to recharge daily or every two days to make up what you have consumed. (plug in, driving, Onan, or solar). Keep in mind that batteries will only recharge at a certain rate. So over sizing a converter or thinking the Onan will recharge at full capacity is incorrect. They will not do it quickly. About 20 amps average over the entire charge cycle is normal for a pair of 200 amp-Hour golf cart batteries. Most batteries do not like to be depleted much below 50%. So keep that figure in your calculations.
DO NOT plan on using your engine battery for anything other than starting and running the engine. So do not put any load on it when parked and you will not be stranded. If you follow the 50% rule the Onan will always start. If for some reason it does not start you always can start the main engine and let it charge the house batteries for 5 minutes or so. Then start the Onan. The boost switch switch will also work to start an Onan with a weak battery.
Once you have done all of the above the you can plan on sizing the components in your solution.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... [message #327086 is a reply to message #327078] |
Thu, 14 December 2017 07:56 |
Tilerpep
Messages: 404
Registered: June 2013
Location: Raleigh, NC
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Another tip for new folks is to use the forum search (upper right of web page). Think of a key word and have at it. Advantage over a google search it the answers will be more GMC focused within the forum. Pick a keyword like "autotransfer" and see what other people have done. Same thing over at the pictures site, it has it's own search ability.
gmcmhphotos.com
1975 Glenbrook, 1978 Royale rear bath
Raleigh, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... [message #327099 is a reply to message #327097] |
Thu, 14 December 2017 13:01 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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First of all, they ARE separate.
My coach came to me with two 12V batteries paralleled for engine starting. Why two is a mystery. One had always been enough to start an Oldsmobile! Several folks have written on this list that paralleling batteries CAN be a bad thing. If one goes bad, it is likely to destroy the other one.
When I had to replace batteries recently, I replaced the two 6V golf cart "house" batteries (from Sam's Club) behind the Onan genset and replaced only one of the two engine/start "chassis" batteries (also from Sam's Club).
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot com
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of austenm606@
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 11:56
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions.....
Okay, so lights and everything is happy on DC. Cool.
Dumb questions: How many DC systems are there? There are 2 batteries up front and 1 in the rear (well it has two 6V in series but you get it). Does
the coach battery up front go to the same place that the battery in the back goes to?
If they are separate, where do I tap in for additional batteries? I can fit those odyssey batteries almost anywhere that can support an additional 400
pounds safely.
So, powering the entire coach off an inverter is out because I need DC for stuff.
Is this a custom wiring job with manual switches for power sources?
--
1977 Eleganza II,
26 Foot,
403 Engine,
Full time boondocking,
New Owner with Plans (deadly last words),
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... [message #327100 is a reply to message #327097] |
Thu, 14 December 2017 13:13 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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To answer your number of and location of batteries questions we need to know the year, model, and length of the coach.
Some years had all of the batteries up front and one tiny one in the rear just for starting the ONAN. Other years have only the engine battery up front and the house battery(s) in the rear with no standalone battery for starting the Onan generator. Then there is the 23 foot coach that moved the batteries again and the non-GMC upfitted coaches like Avion and Coachman that did their own thing. There is possible previous owner modifications to the standard ones made by GM. So let us know what year and model you have and we will try to answer your question.
Note: The engine battery should always be up front and a normal engine starting battery just like your car. I like group 31A or group 27 up there but not Deep Cell or golf cart type batteries. Other starting batteries will work. Starting type batteries are designed for brief use at high current for starting.
The house batteries are deep cell higher capacity batteries designed for a lower rate of drain but over an extended period of time. These are the batteries that have been installed in various locations in the coach.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... [message #327104 is a reply to message #327081] |
Thu, 14 December 2017 13:25 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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My 78 Royale is a bit different. It has a 2 battery tray up front on the
passenger side. One of the two identical batteries is the engine battery.
When the engine is off, it is TOTALLY isolated from anything except the
isolator. It can easily sit there for 3 months with plenty of stored energy
to start the engine. The other battery up front is a boost battery. It's
purpose is to back up the engine battery should it be necessary.
My coach batteries are two T-105 Trojans that are 6 volt and are
hooked up to yield 12 volts to the house systems as well as Onan starting
duties. They are located in the Onan compartment, a short distance from
the Progressive Dynamics 60 amp converter, 12 volt fuse panel, and 120 volt
breaker panel, as well as the 50 amp transfer switch for the house/Onan
system. The converter is connected to the boost switch to maintain the
front boost battery when the coach is on shore power or Onan. Belt and
suspenders, no combiners.
ALL my appliances are propane. Water heater, stove, oven, fridge,
furnace. Can dry camp easily for 4 days without running either the coach or
the Onan. All lighting is led. Works for me.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Dec 14, 2017 11:01 AM, "D C _Mac_ Macdonald" wrote:
First of all, they ARE separate.
My coach came to me with two 12V batteries paralleled for engine starting.
Why two is a mystery. One had always been enough to start an Oldsmobile!
Several folks have written on this list that paralleling batteries CAN be a
bad thing. If one goes bad, it is likely to destroy the other one.
When I had to replace batteries recently, I replaced the two 6V golf cart
"house" batteries (from Sam's Club) behind the Onan genset and replaced
only one of the two engine/start "chassis" batteries (also from Sam's Club).
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot com
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of austenm606@ <
gmail.com austenm606@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 11:56
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions.....
Okay, so lights and everything is happy on DC. Cool.
Dumb questions: How many DC systems are there? There are 2 batteries up
front and 1 in the rear (well it has two 6V in series but you get it). Does
the coach battery up front go to the same place that the battery in the
back goes to?
If they are separate, where do I tap in for additional batteries? I can fit
those odyssey batteries almost anywhere that can support an additional 400
pounds safely.
So, powering the entire coach off an inverter is out because I need DC for
stuff.
Is this a custom wiring job with manual switches for power sources?
--
1977 Eleganza II,
26 Foot,
403 Engine,
Full time boondocking,
New Owner with Plans (deadly last words),
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... [message #327106 is a reply to message #327104] |
Thu, 14 December 2017 13:40 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Perhaps my once-upon-a-time Palm Beach came that way, but I wonder how that second battery might have been isolated from the "normal" start battery, but kept charged regularly.
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of James Hupy
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 13:25
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions.....
My 78 Royale is a bit different. It has a 2 battery tray up front on the
passenger side. One of the two identical batteries is the engine battery.
When the engine is off, it is TOTALLY isolated from anything except the
isolator. It can easily sit there for 3 months with plenty of stored energy
to start the engine. The other battery up front is a boost battery. It's
purpose is to back up the engine battery should it be necessary.
My coach batteries are two T-105 Trojans that are 6 volt and are
hooked up to yield 12 volts to the house systems as well as Onan starting
duties. They are located in the Onan compartment, a short distance from
the Progressive Dynamics 60 amp converter, 12 volt fuse panel, and 120 volt
breaker panel, as well as the 50 amp transfer switch for the house/Onan
system. The converter is connected to the boost switch to maintain the
front boost battery when the coach is on shore power or Onan. Belt and
suspenders, no combiners.
ALL my appliances are propane. Water heater, stove, oven, fridge,
furnace. Can dry camp easily for 4 days without running either the coach or
the Onan. All lighting is led. Works for me.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Dec 14, 2017 11:01 AM, "D C _Mac_ Macdonald" wrote:
First of all, they ARE separate.
My coach came to me with two 12V batteries paralleled for engine starting.
Why two is a mystery. One had always been enough to start an Oldsmobile!
Several folks have written on this list that paralleling batteries CAN be a
bad thing. If one goes bad, it is likely to destroy the other one.
When I had to replace batteries recently, I replaced the two 6V golf cart
"house" batteries (from Sam's Club) behind the Onan genset and replaced
only one of the two engine/start "chassis" batteries (also from Sam's Club).
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot com
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of austenm606@ <
gmail.com austenm606@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 11:56
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions.....
Okay, so lights and everything is happy on DC. Cool.
Dumb questions: How many DC systems are there? There are 2 batteries up
front and 1 in the rear (well it has two 6V in series but you get it). Does
the coach battery up front go to the same place that the battery in the
back goes to?
If they are separate, where do I tap in for additional batteries? I can fit
those odyssey batteries almost anywhere that can support an additional 400
pounds safely.
So, powering the entire coach off an inverter is out because I need DC for
stuff.
Is this a custom wiring job with manual switches for power sources?
--
1977 Eleganza II,
26 Foot,
403 Engine,
Full time boondocking,
New Owner with Plans (deadly last words),
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... [message #327108 is a reply to message #327107] |
Thu, 14 December 2017 14:38 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Austen,
I just glanced over your message, but I tend to think your not
understanding the origional way things are wired and why.
Take time to understand them before you go and do things that might not be
necessary.
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 12:22 PM, Brian Krikorian wrote:
> On my '77 Eleganza I have:
>
> 1. Like Jim, a tray on the passenger side with two batteries linked
> together;
> 2. A chasis battery on the driver's side (which I'm pretty sure is the
> main ignition battery), AND,
> 3. Two 6 volts in the back by the generator.
>
> I still am not sure why there are two up front batteries on the passenger
> side; I've tried to look down there to see if their both 12s or two sixes.
> They may be an extra ignition boost. All part of my never ending
> pilgrimage to figure out how my coach works!
> --
> Brian K
> 1977 Eleganza II, TZE167V100261
> Bellevue, WA
> Rebuilt 455, New brake system, a lot of Original Equipment ready to fall
> apart (discovering more as I go along....)
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] *New Owner* Battery Bank Questions..... [message #327117 is a reply to message #327111] |
Thu, 14 December 2017 19:54 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Like Rob, I am somewhat electrically challenged. That's why I kept my solar system simple. Here is a seminar on what I did to adapt our coach to be a better boondocker:
http://gmcws.org/blog/the-gmc-unplugged-by-carl-stouffer-at-spring-2013-rally/
It is just a JWID presentation and I don't pretend to be any kind of an expert. It just makes sense to employ the KISS principle whenever possible on the coach.
Keep in mind that even a 26' GMC is pretty small, so use of extension cords etc should not be much of a factor. It is pretty simple to add a few dedicated inverter powered outlets at strategic locations in the coach and to keep the inverter system separate from the shore power/generator 110 volt system. Ken Burton's suggestions are spot on (he is NOT electrically challenged) and following his suggestions about lighting, refrigeration, etc will take you a long way toward where you want to go.
Living in the Southwest, I have an abundance of sunshine, so my small 195 watt system with a PWM controller and two GC-2 batteries works just fine for us. Most days we are back at 100% on the house batteries by mid afternoon. We do use only LED lights, a propane fridge, and are conservative on power use at night. But, we can still use two laptops and a 19" TV/DVD as much as we want to. We generally do not use our furnace at night and rely on body heat and extra blankets to ward off the cold, with occasional use of the furnace in the morning to take the edge off. We also stay away from really cold camping areas whenever possible when dry camping.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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