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Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326459 is a reply to message #326445] Tue, 28 November 2017 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Denney is currently offline  Richard Denney   United States
Messages: 617
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 2
Senior Member
I had to replace the in-tank pump in an Audi--a very good Bosch pump. Any
pump can fail.

Rick "since you asked :) " Denney

On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 3:54 PM Emery Stora wrote:

> True, but how often are you planning to replace them?
>
> Mine have been in for 8 years now and are still working fine.
>
> If one were to fail then I still have the other — or if I didn’t have the
> time to replace an in-tank one I could always hook up an outside the tank
> one temporarily. The in-tank pumps do allow fuel to be pulled through it
> by an external pump.
>
> The in-tank pump in my 1973 Jeep Grand Cherokee still worked after 42
> years when I traded it in. How many of you have ever had to replace an
> electric in-tank pump in their automobile?
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick, CO
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326461 is a reply to message #326445] Wed, 29 November 2017 07:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lqqkatjon is currently offline  lqqkatjon   United States
Messages: 1539
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
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Senior Member
i agree in-tank pumps are both harder to install, and harder to change. But when you talk to those that went that route it seems vapor lock is gone.

There are trade off's to all systems. A person has to make up there own mind and live with it.


Jon Roche 75 palm beach St. Cloud, MN http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326462 is a reply to message #326459] Wed, 29 November 2017 07:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lqqkatjon is currently offline  lqqkatjon   United States
Messages: 1539
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 3
Senior Member
I have dealt with numerous electric fuel pump failures.

Funny about chevy astro's. We changed quite a few. I remember getting one replaced under warantee only to have our mechanic break the replacement trying to install the lock ring. That was a $400 whoops.

Once on a Chevy suburban.

Couple ford e-250's.

My 93 cherokee never had an issue. I did rip the wires off that once in the woods, then punched a hole in the gas tank a year later in that same woods. So had the fuel pump out twice on that. But my 98 jeep wrangler lost a pump as did a friend's 94 wrangler.


3-4 fuel pumps on my vw sand rail. Those I should not count, but I can think of a few after market fuel pumps that were installed in a gmc motorhome that went bad.

I also live where it is -30 some weeks in winter and 100 in summer. Winters are hard on fuel pumps.


Jon Roche 75 palm beach St. Cloud, MN http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

[Updated on: Wed, 29 November 2017 07:36]

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Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326464 is a reply to message #326461] Wed, 29 November 2017 08:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
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Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 42
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G'day,

I intend to install low pressure in-tank pumps (7 psi) to feed a surge tank up front which can feed the mechanical fuel pump or a
high pressure FI pump. The surge tank will have a return plumbed into the 1/2 inch vent tube for the fuel filler.

1) cut off the tubes off a defective tank sender
2) drill a hole in the center of the tank sender
3) put a screw with a sharpened end through the hole and install in the tank(s)
4) raise the tank(s) into position
5) the screw will put a mark on the aluminum sheet that covers the Styrofoam insulation
6) drill a 1/8 inch hole up through the aluminum sheet, Styrofoam, and plywood floor
7) using the 1/8 inch hole as a guide cut a 6 inch hole using a fly cutter
8) using a router along the edge of the 6 inch hole create a step for a 1 inch thick plug with a stepped edge
9) cover the floor with high grade vinyl
10) carefully cut out the 6 inch hole in the vinyl and glue it to the plug
10) make a custom fit carpet to cover the area and bind the edges

This will provide access to the pumps should they require replacement.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of Jon Roche
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 7:26 AM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb

i agree in-tank pumps are both harder to install, and harder to change. But when you talk to those that went that route it seems
vapor lock is gone.

There are trade off's to all systems. A person has to make up there own mind and live with it.
--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/


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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326465 is a reply to message #326033] Wed, 29 November 2017 08:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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Location: Woodstock, IL
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My personal experiences with Mopar in tank pump assemblies in Jeeps is they are very long lived compared to most other high pressure in tank pumps in the industry, which are short lived. Back to the GMC carb vs EFI debate-- if the reason for doing it is vapor lock, that can be corrected by installing an external feed through low pressure pump near the Aux tank and opperated via the existing Aux seitch via a relay with total parts costs well under $100. I have found all the wrapping and insulating a futile exercise. VL occurs before the mech pump in my opinion. Flip the switch and it's fixed every time. Also a well set up Qjet will start smoothly, transition cold to warm seamlessly and be very dependable. The only reason I would go to EFI is if I lived or drove a lot at altitude. It can't add air density but can pull fuel automatically at altitude keeping the engine more in the correct range to make the most of the thin air

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326474 is a reply to message #326033] Wed, 29 November 2017 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GMC Jimmy is currently offline  GMC Jimmy   Canada
Messages: 149
Registered: September 2016
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Karma: 1
Senior Member
Thanks again everyone for your input.

John, Vapor Lock is one reason for considering EFI, the main reason is peace of mind for all-around driving. I live in Ontario, Canada, not much in the way of altitude in my area although I plan to drive to California in the spring.

I would like reliability, I realize there are challenges with both systems and that a properly tuned carb and distributor can address my concerns. I wasn't looking for a reason to spend two thousand dollars for an EFI set-up, I simply understood that an EFI system could be a more efficient and a potentially less troublesome route... everyone has their own opinion and experience with each.

My initial post asked for real world experiences rather than anecdotal opinions so I could base my choice on practical over theory. I
was directed to FaceBook as there is a group that discusses the Fitech set-up in the GMC motorhome, unfortunately I'm not a FB guy.

The quest continues,
Thanks,
Mike


Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326480 is a reply to message #326464] Wed, 29 November 2017 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lqqkatjon is currently offline  lqqkatjon   United States
Messages: 1539
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 3
Senior Member
Rob-

2 quick things.
Do you know anybody who has cut the holes in the floor and what diameter and have r+r there fuel pumps through that hole??
I see that option talked about, and good in theory, I never heard how well it worked out in real life. I keep thinking you need a really big hole to manouver the fuel pump in and out of the tank, as well as getting the lock rings twisted and in place square and proper. Not saying it cant be done, but when I have looked at accessing the fuel senders 2-3 " below the floor, i wonder how big of a hole is needed to service?

2nd item is when I have had fuel tanks down it is more then obvious where to drill up. The last coach I did, i hole sawed out the foam, and drilled up into carpet with a 1/4" bit. You wont need to lift the tank to mark anything from bottom.

If you look at my photos you will see the factory already has a hole for senders. At least on my 75 and the 77 i did tanks on.


Jon Roche 75 palm beach St. Cloud, MN http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326481 is a reply to message #326480] Wed, 29 November 2017 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bdub is currently offline  bdub   United States
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Registered: February 2004
Location: Central Texas
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Senior Member
I have 6" holes in the floor rabbited out to 7" on top 1/2" so the cover
won't fall out. I had to put on a new 2" piece of fuel resistant hose to
couple the fuel pump to the output tube. My first one disintegrated after
a couple of months and left me dead on the side of the road. Yes, I
switched pumps to pull from but that pressure went straight into the rear
tank because the pump connection wasn't there to stop it! Anyhow, I was
able to easily pull out the pump and sender assembly, repair, and
re-assemble without any trouble. Even with the o-ring seal.

bdub

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:49 PM, Jon Roche wrote:

> Rob-
>
> 2 quick things.
> Do you know anybody who has cut the holes in the floor and what diameter
> and have r+r there fuel pumps through that hole??
> I see that option talked about, and good in theory, I never heard how well
> it worked out in real life. I keep thinking you need a really big hole
> to manouver the fuel pump in and out of the tank, as well as getting the
> lock rings twisted and in place square and proper. Not saying it cant be
> done, but when I have looked at accessing the fuel senders 2-3 " below the
> floor, i wonder how big of a hole is needed to service?
>
> 2nd item is when I have had fuel tanks down it is more then obvious where
> to drill up. The last coach I did, i hole sawed out the foam, and drilled
> up into carpet with a 1/4" bit. You wont need to lift the tank to mark
> anything from bottom.
>
> If you look at my photos you will see the factory already has a hole for
> senders. At least on my 75 and the 77 i did tanks on.
>
> --
> Jon Roche
> 75 palm beach
> St. Cloud, MN
> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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bdub
www.bdub.net
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326482 is a reply to message #326480] Wed, 29 November 2017 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bdub is currently offline  bdub   United States
Messages: 1257
Registered: February 2004
Location: Central Texas
Karma: 13
Senior Member
Oh and don't bet the farm on those existing cutouts in the insulation being
perfect fit for the tanks. Both mine were off about a half inch.

bdub

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist On Behalf Of Jon Roche
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 2:50 PM

2 quick things.
Do you know anybody who has cut the holes in the floor and what diameter and
have r+r there fuel pumps through that hole??
I see that option talked about, and good in theory, I never heard how well
it worked out in real life. I keep thinking you need a really big hole
to manouver the fuel pump in and out of the tank, as well as getting the
lock rings twisted and in place square and proper. Not saying it cant be
done, but when I have looked at accessing the fuel senders 2-3 " below the
floor, i wonder how big of a hole is needed to service?

2nd item is when I have had fuel tanks down it is more then obvious where to
drill up. The last coach I did, i hole sawed out the foam, and drilled
up into carpet with a 1/4" bit. You wont need to lift the tank to mark
anything from bottom.

If you look at my photos you will see the factory already has a hole for
senders. At least on my 75 and the 77 i did tanks on.


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bdub
www.bdub.net
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326492 is a reply to message #326033] Wed, 29 November 2017 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
Messages: 2997
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 16
Senior Member
Mike, if you want piece of mind--you can't beat a Qjet. As far as efficiency, I have never seen a post here about how they get better MPG with EFI. Have seen several posts about dead in water with EFI or orphaned systems with no parts and support.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326493 is a reply to message #326480] Wed, 29 November 2017 17:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wally is currently offline  wally   United States
Messages: 582
Registered: August 2004
Location: Omaha Nebraska
Karma: 6
Senior Member
lqqkatjon wrote on Wed, 29 November 2017 14:49
Rob-

2 quick things.
Do you know anybody who has cut the holes in the floor and what diameter and have r+r there fuel pumps through that hole??
I see that option talked about, and good in theory, I never heard how well it worked out in real life. I keep thinking you need a really big hole to manouver the fuel pump in and out of the tank, as well as getting the lock rings twisted and in place square and proper. Not saying it cant be done, but when I have looked at accessing the fuel senders 2-3 " below the floor, i wonder how big of a hole is needed to service?

2nd item is when I have had fuel tanks down it is more then obvious where to drill up. The last coach I did, i hole sawed out the foam, and drilled up into carpet with a 1/4" bit. You wont need to lift the tank to mark anything from bottom.

If you look at my photos you will see the factory already has a hole for senders. At least on my 75 and the 77 i did tanks on.

We made floor access for in tank pumps. 1/8 aluminium plates recessed to floor level over a 6 inch hole. Self adhesive floor tile over it. Marked hole location while the tanks were out and I could see where the senders actually were by rub marks.
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/2014/07/floor-plates-for-access-to-fuel-senders.html
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/2014/07/floor-plates-for-access-to-fuel-senders.html
HTH


Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook
Megasquirt III injection
Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
Manny reaction arm system
Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
Our GMC Blog
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326498 is a reply to message #326493] Wed, 29 November 2017 19:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15505
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 42
Senior Member
Wally,

Thanks for responding to this thread, I didn't realize that the tanks were as far forward as they are. I really like the self
adhesive floor tile idea.

I note you've used what appears to be 3/8' flareless fittings to connect the senders to what appears to be Poly Armour tubing, I
have Swagelok 3/8" flareless to 38 degree male stainless steel fittings. The flareless connection would connect to the sender
fittings and the flared connection to the Poly Armour tubing.

How did you connect the lines that go across the top of the tank to the lines that go up the side of the coach in the frame rails? I
plan on having some braided stainless steel flex hoses made up for that purpose.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of Wally Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 5:53 PM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb

lqqkatjon wrote on Wed, 29 November 2017 14:49
> Rob-
>
> 2 quick things.
> Do you know anybody who has cut the holes in the floor and what diameter and have r+r there fuel pumps through that hole??
> I see that option talked about, and good in theory, I never heard how well it worked out in real life. I keep thinking you need
a really big
> hole to manouver the fuel pump in and out of the tank, as well as getting the lock rings twisted and in place square and proper.
Not saying it
> cant be done, but when I have looked at accessing the fuel senders 2-3 " below the floor, i wonder how big of a hole is needed to
service?
>
> 2nd item is when I have had fuel tanks down it is more then obvious where to drill up. The last coach I did, i hole sawed out
the foam, and
> drilled up into carpet with a 1/4" bit. You wont need to lift the tank to mark anything from bottom.
>
> If you look at my photos you will see the factory already has a hole for senders. At least on my 75 and the 77 i did tanks on.

We made floor access for in tank pumps. 1/8 aluminium plates recessed to floor level over a 6 inch hole. Self adhesive floor tile
over it. Marked hole
location while the tanks were out and I could see where the senders actually were by rub marks.
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/2014/07/floor-plates-for-access-to-fuel-senders.html
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/2014/07/floor-plates-for-access-to-fuel-senders.html
HTH
--
Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook
Megasquirt III injection
Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
Manny reaction arm system
Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326508 is a reply to message #326498] Wed, 29 November 2017 21:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wally is currently offline  wally   United States
Messages: 582
Registered: August 2004
Location: Omaha Nebraska
Karma: 6
Senior Member
Rob, I used Dorman nylon fuel tube like newer cars and trucks use OEM. Those Dorman fittings are made to go from steel tube to their nylon tube. Same scheme to connect the forward end.
I did put external check valves in both pump lines as I had read of others who had issues if a pump check sticks open or a line comes off in the tank leading to an instant stop.
So far so good.

USAussie wrote on Wed, 29 November 2017 19:46
Wally,

Thanks for responding to this thread, I didn't realize that the tanks were as far forward as they are. I really like the self
adhesive floor tile idea.

I note you've used what appears to be 3/8' flareless fittings to connect the senders to what appears to be Poly Armour tubing, I
have Swagelok 3/8" flareless to 38 degree male stainless steel fittings. The flareless connection would connect to the sender
fittings and the flared connection to the Poly Armour tubing.

How did you connect the lines that go across the top of the tank to the lines that go up the side of the coach in the frame rails? I
plan on having some braided stainless steel flex hoses made up for that purpose.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of Wally Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 5:53 PM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb

lqqkatjon wrote on Wed, 29 November 2017 14:49
> Rob-
>
> 2 quick things.
> Do you know anybody who has cut the holes in the floor and what diameter and have r+r there fuel pumps through that hole??
> I see that option talked about, and good in theory, I never heard how well it worked out in real life. I keep thinking you need
a really big
> hole to manouver the fuel pump in and out of the tank, as well as getting the lock rings twisted and in place square and proper.
Not saying it
> cant be done, but when I have looked at accessing the fuel senders 2-3 " below the floor, i wonder how big of a hole is needed to
service?
>
> 2nd item is when I have had fuel tanks down it is more then obvious where to drill up. The last coach I did, i hole sawed out
the foam, and
> drilled up into carpet with a 1/4" bit. You wont need to lift the tank to mark anything from bottom.
>
> If you look at my photos you will see the factory already has a hole for senders. At least on my 75 and the 77 i did tanks on.

We made floor access for in tank pumps. 1/8 aluminium plates recessed to floor level over a 6 inch hole. Self adhesive floor tile
over it. Marked hole
location while the tanks were out and I could see where the senders actually were by rub marks.
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/2014/07/floor-plates-for-access-to-fuel-senders.html
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/2014/07/floor-plates-for-access-to-fuel-senders.html
HTH
--
Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook
Megasquirt III injection
Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
Manny reaction arm system
Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/

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http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org


_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook
Megasquirt III injection
Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
Manny reaction arm system
Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
Our GMC Blog
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326510 is a reply to message #326508] Wed, 29 November 2017 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Billy Massey is currently offline  Billy Massey   United States
Messages: 663
Registered: January 2004
Location: Central Texas
Karma: 4
Senior Member

Wish I'd a used those check valves.

bdub

On Nov 29, 2017 9:14 PM, "Wally Anderson" wrote:

Rob, I used Dorman nylon fuel tube like newer cars and trucks use OEM.
Those Dorman fittings are made to go from steel tube to their nylon tube.
Same scheme to connect the forward end.
I did put external check valves in both pump lines as I had read of others
who had issues if a pump check sticks open or a line comes off in the tank
leading to an instant stop.
So far so good.
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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bdub
bdub.net
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326514 is a reply to message #326508] Wed, 29 November 2017 22:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15505
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 42
Senior Member
Wally,

I want to use Poly Armour and put it on the outside of the frame because I'm hoping to plumb the water that condenses on the A/C
evaporator to the fuel line and the latent heat of vaporization will cool the fuel.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of Wally Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:08 PM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb

Rob, I used Dorman nylon fuel tube like newer cars and trucks use OEM. Those Dorman fittings are made to go from steel tube to their
nylon tube. Same scheme to connect the forward end.
I did put external check valves in both pump lines as I had read of others who had issues if a pump check sticks open or a line
comes off in the tank leading to an instant stop.
So far so good.



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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] EFI vs Carb [message #326607 is a reply to message #326514] Fri, 01 December 2017 17:22 Go to previous message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
Messages: 6474
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 32
Senior Member
USAussie wrote on Wed, 29 November 2017 23:29
Wally,

I want to use Poly Armour and put it on the outside of the frame because I'm hoping to plumb the water that condenses on the A/C
evaporator to the fuel line and the latent heat of vaporization will cool the fuel.

Regards,
Rob M.

Rob,

In April of 2012, I replaced just about all the rubber fuel line with Ployarmor. I used a jewelers saw (very fine hacksaw) to cut the bubble off the fittings on the tank access and then used brass compression fittings to make the connection. That makes 5 years and about 40K miles that they have been good. I cheated, I copied what Emery did.

Matt



Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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