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[GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #321985] Sat, 12 August 2017 20:07 Go to next message
Peer Oliver Schmidt is currently offline  Peer Oliver Schmidt   United States
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My 23's VIN ends with 2572 and starts with 033 telling me it is a 73
23'. Looking at http://gmcmhregistry.com/Trivia.html it is being said
that only 2059 were build in 73.

How does this work out? Anyone care to enlighten me.
--
Best regards

Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA

'76a Eleganza II, Oasis, LV,NV
'73 Sequoia, VA

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Best regards

Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA
'76a Eleganza II, CA '73 Sequoia, NH
Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #321986 is a reply to message #321985] Sat, 12 August 2017 20:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kosier is currently offline  Kosier   United States
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I would say the numbers were consecutive regardless of coach length.
Only the prefix changed to indicate the chassis difference.
Of course, I could be wrong again.

Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Peer Oliver Schmidt GMC"
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 9:07 PM
To:
Subject: [GMCnet] Trivia Question

> My 23's VIN ends with 2572 and starts with 033 telling me it is a 73
> 23'. Looking at http://gmcmhregistry.com/Trivia.html it is being said
> that only 2059 were build in 73.
>
> How does this work out? Anyone care to enlighten me.
> --
> Best regards
>
> Peer Oliver Schmidt
> PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA
>
> '76a Eleganza II, Oasis, LV,NV
> '73 Sequoia, VA
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

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Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #321987 is a reply to message #321985] Sat, 12 August 2017 20:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
emerystora is currently offline  emerystora   United States
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I believe HM was applying serial numbers to early experimental models before they started real production

Emery Stora

> On Aug 12, 2017, at 7:07 PM, Peer Oliver Schmidt GMC wrote:
>
> My 23's VIN ends with 2572 and starts with 033 telling me it is a 73
> 23'. Looking at http://gmcmhregistry.com/Trivia.html it is being said
> that only 2059 were build in 73.
>
> How does this work out? Anyone care to enlighten me.
> --
> Best regards
>
> Peer Oliver Schmidt
> PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA
>
> '76a Eleganza II, Oasis, LV,NV
> '73 Sequoia, VA
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

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Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #321988 is a reply to message #321986] Sat, 12 August 2017 22:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Denney is currently offline  Richard Denney   United States
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That's my understanding as well. But the issue is that only 2059 coaches of
any length were built in '73, making it curious to find a sequence number
in the 2500's in the '73 model year.

I sorta doubt there were 500 prototypes (I recall 20 with production serial
numbers), but did they start with TZE0x3V100000?

Rick "only 461 '73 230's" Denney

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 8:36 PM Gary Kosier wrote:

> I would say the numbers were consecutive regardless of coach length.
> Only the prefix changed to indicate the chassis difference.
> Of course, I could be wrong again.
>
> Gary Kosier
> 77PB w/500Cad
> Newark, Ohio
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Peer Oliver Schmidt GMC"
> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 9:07 PM
> To:
> Subject: [GMCnet] Trivia Question
>
>> My 23's VIN ends with 2572 and starts with 033 telling me it is a 73
>> 23'. Looking at http://gmcmhregistry.com/Trivia.html it is being said
>> that only 2059 were build in 73.
>>
>> How does this work out? Anyone care to enlighten me.
>> --
>> Best regards
>>
>> Peer Oliver Schmidt
>> PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA
>>
>> '76a Eleganza II, Oasis, LV,NV
>> '73 Sequoia, VA
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #321990 is a reply to message #321985] Sat, 12 August 2017 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrgmc3 is currently offline  mrgmc3   United States
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Peer Oliver Schmidt wrote on Sat, 12 August 2017 20:07
My 23's VIN ends with 2572 and starts with 033 telling me it is a 73
23'. Looking at http://gmcmhregistry.com/Trivia.html it is being said
that only 2059 were build in 73.




In this era GM would typically start a production sale able series with vin 0001 and run more or less consecutively to the the last number in that model year. 23 and 26 foot models would be mixed together. They would have built maybe a dozen or so prototypes for early development that would not have had a production type vin. They would have built pilots where the vin began with 0001 and might have built as few as 10 and maybe as many as 25 of this level. Regular production would then commence with 0026 or the appropriate next number. The pilot level vehicles were probably never sold to the public. There is no way they would have built 500 pre production vehicles, they never have for any model.
Please clarify what you mean by the statement your vin begins with "033", it should start with "TZE". The last 8 characters should be 3V102572 if it is a 73. If it's 4V102572 then it's actually a '74.


Chris Geils - Twin Cities 1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; Headers, Progressive Dynamics 9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, 50k mi
Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #321992 is a reply to message #321990] Sun, 13 August 2017 01:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peer Oliver Schmidt is currently offline  Peer Oliver Schmidt   United States
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Senior Member
Chris Geils via Gmclist schrieb/wrote
> The last 8 characters should be 3V102572

That is my number.

--
Best regards

Peer Oliver Schmidt
the internet company
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA


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Best regards

Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA
'76a Eleganza II, CA '73 Sequoia, NH
Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #321993 is a reply to message #321990] Sun, 13 August 2017 03:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
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G'day,

I forwarded this to Bill Bryant and asked him to comment.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of Chris Geils via Gmclist
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 1:53 PM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Cc: Chris Geils
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question

Peer Oliver Schmidt wrote on Sat, 12 August 2017 20:07
> My 23's VIN ends with 2572 and starts with 033 telling me it is a 73
> 23'. Looking at http://gmcmhregistry.com/Trivia.html it is being said
> that only 2059 were build in 73.


In this era GM would typically start a production sale able series with vin 0001 and run more or less consecutively to the the last
number in that model year. 23 and 26 foot models would be mixed together. They would have built maybe a dozen or so prototypes for
early development that would not have had a production type vin. They would have built pilots where the vin began with 0001 and
might have built as few as 10 and maybe as many as 25 of this level. Regular production would then commence with 0026 or the
appropriate next number. The pilot level vehicles were probably never sold to the public. There is no way they would have built
500 pre production vehicles, they never have for any model.
Please clarify what you mean by the statement your vin begins with "033", it should start with "TZE". The last 8 characters should
be 3V102572 if it is a 73. If it's 4V102572 then it's actually a '74.
--
Chris Geils


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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #322008 is a reply to message #321993] Sun, 13 August 2017 11:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bryant374 is currently offline  bryant374   United States
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Here is what I think I know.

GaryK you are right, the TZE sequence number was reset at the start of each model year.
ChrisG, a nice precise description of how the numbers work.

I have been told the first 20 1973 TZEs were used for testing and destroyed. That agrees with the TZE numbers we have a record of. The earliest TZEs we know of are 21, 22, 23, 24 and were all built 11-14-72.

Both 1973 & 1974 have coach TZEs higher than the recognized total.

If you have your glove box sticker, "Service Parts Identification" there is lots of info there.

I have the glove box image for TZE063V103035 with a build date of 110173, so we know the 73 TZE numbers went at least that high.


BACKGROUND;
The SOURCE of all the BUILD numbers we know are from a document dated 10-18-79 provided by Alex Birch. Alex (RIP) was an early GMC MH Engineer involved in early build, testing & demonstrations and had provided many first hand accounts of early GMC Motor Home history.

Details especially for the first two production years are difficult to come by, most of those first hand accounts have disappeared. Likely confusion may also have been caused by a production stoppage in Dec. 1973 and again early 1974 due to the gas crises and surplus GMC inventories at Gemini. Dave Greenberg and I spent many hours attempting to get to the facts,often with little success.


Here is my SPECULATION (based on many random details, but few direct facts);

A block of TZE sequence numbers were released to the production line each Monday. GMC MH production in 1973 was not a steady stream but with many new processes to learn and running changes one would expect different build qtys. likely week to week. Still they had to have a block of numbers available should they build the max.

My belief is that the unused numbers in each weeks allotment may have been left unused and were discarded, the next weeks block of numbers assigned for that week ignoring the unused gap, etc., etc., etc.

The 1975 thru 1978 TZEs appear to have been controlled much better.


And then there are the anomalies that don't fit no matter what you believe;

A 1973 23' with a 26' TZE

a 1978 PB with TZE168V100000, This was at a Texas GMCMI rally parked next to my coach, asking the owner about it, he had no idea.

A couple with nonTZE formats, who knows. If in doubt check the frame stamping (upside down, drivers side frame below the "sink window".

If you are now more confused, sorry. Check with me at the Elkhart,IN GMCMI rally in Sept.

Bill






Bill Bryant
1976~PB
1914 Ford
1965 Corvette
GMC MH History CD & GMC Showroom DVD
Workprint DVD GMC development 11-70 to 3-71
http://bdub.net/billbryant/
Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #322010 is a reply to message #322008] Sun, 13 August 2017 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Bill Bryant of Sun, 13 August 2017 12:53 not quoted due to length.

While I know that what Bill has posted is accurate, in my experience with the Detroit OEs, there is no reason to expect a VIN to be "serial".

With most Detroit production, the VIN is assigned when the order is placed. It may not have anything to do with the build order. Often builds are delayed for many reasons. A common one is that a specific part is in short supply. (Or, the assembly plant is too busy to deal with engineering orders.)

When I ordered both program and personal vehicle, as soon as the order was accepted, I would be given a VIN and an expected build date. The initial build date was about a joke. One of the program truck builds was supposed to be early in the run and be used as a final validation. It was delayed, and delayed until the build was scheduled in August. I got my manager to cancel the order (and then it went up two bosses above that) because there would no longer be time for a two month long validation before the model year closed.

A build for a personal car was delayed because it was actually a race car in street clothes and they had to hand build part of it. It still came with the ordered VIN.

Matt



Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #322012 is a reply to message #322010] Sun, 13 August 2017 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
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Not to throw more mud on an already murky picture, but what about Trans
modes in early production years. Those airporter and postal vehicles and
radio station and military application vehicles that were not finished into
a motor home. Were their TZE numbers part of the original runs, or
different? If the first part of their Vin was ZEO 6083 OR ZE0 6583 for 23
footers, then perhaps the last part of the Vin was not consecutive. I sure
don't know. I have seen some wacky stuff with GMC VIN NUMBERS. Often new
owners ask me about their coach after they purchase it, and the coaches
have been extensively altered from how it left the factory or upfitter. It
is impossible to tell some of them if the glove box sticker or build sheet
is missing.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Aug 13, 2017 11:26 AM, "Matt Colie" wrote:

> Bill Bryant of Sun, 13 August 2017 12:53 not quoted due to length.
>
> While I know that what Bill has posted is accurate, in my experience with
> the Detroit OEs, there is no reason to expect a VIN to be "serial".
>
> With most Detroit production, the VIN is assigned when the order is
> placed. It may not have anything to do with the build order. Often builds
> are
> delayed for many reasons. A common one is that a specific part is in
> short supply. (Or, the assembly plant is too busy to deal with engineering
> orders.)
>
> When I ordered both program and personal vehicle, as soon as the order was
> accepted, I would be given a VIN and an expected build date. The initial
> build date was about a joke. One of the program truck builds was supposed
> to be early in the run and be used as a final validation. It was delayed,
> and delayed until the build was scheduled in August. I got my manager to
> cancel the order (and then it went up two bosses above that) because there
> would no longer be time for a two month long validation before the model
> year closed.
>
> A build for a personal car was delayed because it was actually a race car
> in street clothes and they had to hand build part of it. It still came with
> the ordered VIN.
>
> Matt
>
>
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
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Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #322041 is a reply to message #322008] Sun, 13 August 2017 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peer Oliver Schmidt is currently offline  Peer Oliver Schmidt   United States
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Bill,

thank you for your detailed description. It makes sense. Especially the
part of allotting a number of VINs for the production floor, and
discarding those that weren't used. If 3000 is one of the later ones, my
25xx is probably one from the middle 60-75% :-)

Thanks again, and everybody have a great week.

--
Best regards

Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA

'76a Eleganza II, Silverlake Recreational Area, Mesa Park, CA
'73 Sequoia, VA


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Best regards

Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA
'76a Eleganza II, CA '73 Sequoia, NH
Re: [GMCnet] Trivia Question [message #322119 is a reply to message #322012] Mon, 14 August 2017 21:34 Go to previous message
bryant374 is currently offline  bryant374   United States
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Senior Member
Jim,

Maybe I can shed some light, at least that is my intent Smile

All 1973 & 1974 coach TZEs I have come across have been the "standard" 0X3 or 0X4 which denotes a GMC Motor Home interior for those two years. I believe for these two years if you wanted something special you would buy a Motor Home, remove the interior and build whatever you needed.

In 1975 thru 1978 the TransMode was offered (with a unique TZE, (#3) in place of the (1)). With very few options offered (how many windows or doors do you want?) it should have been much simpler to build and ship an empty coach. Controlling the TransMode TZE #set I would guess should have been a simpler effort.


Bill Bryant
1976~PB
1914 Ford
1965 Corvette
GMC MH History CD & GMC Showroom DVD
Workprint DVD GMC development 11-70 to 3-71
http://bdub.net/billbryant/
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