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Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #321991] Sun, 13 August 2017 00:26 Go to next message
BobDunahugh is currently offline  BobDunahugh   United States
Messages: 1503
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
Senior Member
Larry found those bolts on our 78 GMC in need of snugging up a little. ( Thanks so much for checking Larry ) Never thought that those BJ had ever been replaced with 74,000 on the clock. So I went looking in the log book. Replaced at 38,000 miles. And there are no other front end parts replaced. As to the 1 ton. I never disagree with Ken Henderson. But I have a different OPPINION on the I ton. Reasons. It puts a heavier load on the torsion bars, and related attacked supports. Doesn't have standard SAE A frame geometry. As to the lifetime lubed bearing. That lifetime stands until the bearing fails. Thus you can't spend the 50 cents in grease that 1 ton bearing. Many GMC owners have never greased their original bearing. The original can be lubed at your choice. When the 1 ton bearing fails. You need to go buy the entire wheel bearing assembly. The original bearings in my 39 year old GMC have never been greased till now. I'll stick with what GM did.

Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale.
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Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322007 is a reply to message #321991] Sun, 13 August 2017 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Denney is currently offline  Richard Denney   United States
Messages: 483
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 1
Senior Member
Bob, lubing the original bearing requires a massive disassembly using tools
that cost hundreds of dollars. You can drill them for zerks, but that also
requires massive disassembly using those same tools, andnpt making a
mistake. Even then, the lubing requires the same disassembly as replacing
the 1-ton bearing (loosening the axle and backing it off the face seal to
avoid blowing it out).

If the one-ton bearing fails, it can be replaced cheaply and very much more
easily than the original--like an hour versus a weekend. And you can buy
four of them for the price of the tool required to disassemble the
original.

That disassembly of the original should be done every 25,000 miles, and
putting in zerks doesn't mean it won't ever have to be done again,
especially if the control arms on my '73 fatigue and crack.

The geometry issue is somewhat theoretical in our application. Bearing and
ball-joint failures are not--I've had both. Both can be catastrophic.

Rick "not letting theory trump experience" Denney

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 12:26 AM Bob Dunahugh wrote:

> Larry found those bolts on our 78 GMC in need of snugging up a little. (
> Thanks so much for checking Larry ) Never thought that those BJ had ever
> been replaced with 74,000 on the clock. So I went looking in the log book.
> Replaced at 38,000 miles. And there are no other front end parts replaced.
> As to the 1 ton. I never disagree with Ken Henderson. But I have a
> different OPPINION on the I ton. Reasons. It puts a heavier load on the
> torsion bars, and related attacked supports. Doesn't have standard SAE A
> frame geometry. As to the lifetime lubed bearing. That lifetime stands
> until the bearing fails. Thus you can't spend the 50 cents in grease that
> 1 ton bearing. Many GMC owners have never greased their original bearing.
> The original can be lubed at your choice. When the 1 ton bearing fails. You
> need to go buy the entire wheel bearing assembly. The original bearings in
> my 39 year old GMC have never been greased till now. I'll stick with what
> GM did.
>
> Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322024 is a reply to message #321991] Sun, 13 August 2017 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BobDunahugh is currently offline  BobDunahugh   United States
Messages: 1503
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
Senior Member
Richard. We all need to do what puts us in OUR own comfort zone. I put a 1 ton years ago in a friends 78 Royale. Then drove it. I didn't like how it handled. When most people put the 1 ton in. They love it. But their comparing it to the poor handling coach they had before the install. I do high speed road racing. I'm very picky about handling.Our first GMC had 128,000 miles on it, and 25 years before the front bearings got the first grease change. Nice life span. Barrowed the tool. They were fine. So I greased them. That was the 50 cents. Seals were still soft. Put another 52,000 miles on them. When that GMC burned. I put those knuckles in another GMC after an inspection/lube. Bearings and seals still fine. Got 2 knuckles from Dave Linzi with the grease zerks. Lot less then the 1 ton. Another 50 to 75,000 miles ( if I'm still alive ) I'll loosen the axle nut, and put another 50 cents of grease in them. Then tighten the axle nut. And I can still drive my GMC with two fingers all day. If the 1 ton puts you in your comfort zone. I'd do it. I never will. Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale



________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 12:26 AM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: RE: Check your Lower A arm ball joint


Larry found those bolts on our 78 GMC in need of snugging up a little. ( Thanks so much for checking Larry ) Never thought that those BJ had ever been replaced with 74,000 on the clock. So I went looking in the log book. Replaced at 38,000 miles. And there are no other front end parts replaced. As to the 1 ton. I never disagree with Ken Henderson. But I have a different OPPINION on the I ton. Reasons. It puts a heavier load on the torsion bars, and related attacked supports. Doesn't have standard SAE A frame geometry. As to the lifetime lubed bearing. That lifetime stands until the bearing fails. Thus you can't spend the 50 cents in grease that 1 ton bearing. Many GMC owners have never greased their original bearing. The original can be lubed at your choice. When the 1 ton bearing fails. You need to go buy the entire wheel bearing assembly. The original bearings in my 39 year old GMC have never been greased till now. I'll stick with what GM did.

Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale.
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Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322026 is a reply to message #322024] Sun, 13 August 2017 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Denney is currently offline  Richard Denney   United States
Messages: 483
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 1
Senior Member
Bob, mine had under 100,000 miles, and a broken ball joint on one side and
a spun bearing on the other. I used to race, too, but I don't race the
GMC--we'll have to agree to disagree.

Rick "respectfully" Denney
On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 4:17 PM Bob Dunahugh wrote:

> Richard. We all need to do what puts us in OUR own comfort zone. I put a 1
> ton years ago in a friends 78 Royale. Then drove it. I didn't like how it
> handled. When most people put the 1 ton in. They love it. But their
> comparing it to the poor handling coach they had before the install. I do
> high speed road racing. I'm very picky about handling.Our first GMC had
> 128,000 miles on it, and 25 years before the front bearings got the first
> grease change. Nice life span. Barrowed the tool. They were fine. So I
> greased them. That was the 50 cents. Seals were still soft. Put another
> 52,000 miles on them. When that GMC burned. I put those knuckles in another
> GMC after an inspection/lube. Bearings and seals still fine. Got 2
> knuckles from Dave Linzi with the grease zerks. Lot less then the 1 ton.
> Another 50 to 75,000 miles ( if I'm still alive ) I'll loosen the axle nut,
> and put another 50 cents of grease in them. Then tighten the axle nut. And
> I can still drive my GMC with two fingers all day. If the 1 ton puts you in
> your comfort zone. I'd do it. I never will. Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Dunahugh
> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 12:26 AM
> To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
> Subject: RE: Check your Lower A arm ball joint
>
>
> Larry found those bolts on our 78 GMC in need of snugging up a little. (
> Thanks so much for checking Larry ) Never thought that those BJ had ever
> been replaced with 74,000 on the clock. So I went looking in the log book.
> Replaced at 38,000 miles. And there are no other front end parts replaced.
> As to the 1 ton. I never disagree with Ken Henderson. But I have a
> different OPPINION on the I ton. Reasons. It puts a heavier load on the
> torsion bars, and related attacked supports. Doesn't have standard SAE A
> frame geometry. As to the lifetime lubed bearing. That lifetime stands
> until the bearing fails. Thus you can't spend the 50 cents in grease that
> 1 ton bearing. Many GMC owners have never greased their original bearing.
> The original can be lubed at your choice. When the 1 ton bearing fails. You
> need to go buy the entire wheel bearing assembly. The original bearings in
> my 39 year old GMC have never been greased till now. I'll stick with what
> GM did.
>
> Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322032 is a reply to message #322026] Sun, 13 August 2017 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 4391
Registered: May 2010
Karma: 32
Senior Member
Work on a whole lot of GMC coaches. I have seen more of them come apart in
small crumbling pieces than I can remember. PARTICULARLY THE 73-4-5 ERA
COACHES. Lower control arms, lower ball joints, hubs, knuckles, rotors,
outer C.V. joints, torsion bar sockets twisted in the lower control arms,
lower control arm bushings.
Rarely ever see anything wrong with the upper control arms, or
bushings, or upper ball joints, particularly the original equipment stuff.
Lots and lots of loose or missing bolts and nuts on the ball joints,
particularly the 5/16" stuff on the replacement ball joints.
Steve Ferguson had a bunch of tricks that he used to cure the control
arms, some quite extensive involving cutting out original braces, welding
in reinforcements, then fabrication of heavier stuff and re-welding them in
place of the originals.
I have installed a whole bunch of 1 ton kits. Some of the earliest
ones built by Bill Hubler from Caldwell, Idaho, and later by Manny T. I
have not had the opportunity to ever replace any of the 1 ton hubs,
knuckles, or wheel bearings, yet. The only failure I have seen is when the
inner C.V. joint bolts work loose, and fall out under way. Makes one hell
of a racket and leaves you dead in the water if you don't have replacement
bolts with you. Most cases can be directly traced back to improper
installation of the bolts. The drive axle wants to rotate before the bolts
are tightened sufficiently, and no blue loctite was used at install.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Aug 13, 2017 2:58 PM, "Richard Denney" wrote:

> Bob, mine had under 100,000 miles, and a broken ball joint on one side and
> a spun bearing on the other. I used to race, too, but I don't race the
> GMC--we'll have to agree to disagree.
>
> Rick "respectfully" Denney
> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 4:17 PM Bob Dunahugh wrote:
>
>> Richard. We all need to do what puts us in OUR own comfort zone. I put a
> 1
>> ton years ago in a friends 78 Royale. Then drove it. I didn't like how
> it
>> handled. When most people put the 1 ton in. They love it. But their
>> comparing it to the poor handling coach they had before the install. I do
>> high speed road racing. I'm very picky about handling.Our first GMC had
>> 128,000 miles on it, and 25 years before the front bearings got the first
>> grease change. Nice life span. Barrowed the tool. They were fine. So I
>> greased them. That was the 50 cents. Seals were still soft. Put another
>> 52,000 miles on them. When that GMC burned. I put those knuckles in
> another
>> GMC after an inspection/lube. Bearings and seals still fine. Got 2
>> knuckles from Dave Linzi with the grease zerks. Lot less then the 1 ton.
>> Another 50 to 75,000 miles ( if I'm still alive ) I'll loosen the axle
> nut,
>> and put another 50 cents of grease in them. Then tighten the axle nut.
> And
>> I can still drive my GMC with two fingers all day. If the 1 ton puts you
> in
>> your comfort zone. I'd do it. I never will. Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Bob Dunahugh
>> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 12:26 AM
>> To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
>> Subject: RE: Check your Lower A arm ball joint
>>
>>
>> Larry found those bolts on our 78 GMC in need of snugging up a little.
> (
>> Thanks so much for checking Larry ) Never thought that those BJ had ever
>> been replaced with 74,000 on the clock. So I went looking in the log
> book.
>> Replaced at 38,000 miles. And there are no other front end parts
> replaced.
>> As to the 1 ton. I never disagree with Ken Henderson. But I have a
>> different OPPINION on the I ton. Reasons. It puts a heavier load on the
>> torsion bars, and related attacked supports. Doesn't have standard SAE
> A
>> frame geometry. As to the lifetime lubed bearing. That lifetime stands
>> until the bearing fails. Thus you can't spend the 50 cents in grease
> that
>> 1 ton bearing. Many GMC owners have never greased their original bearing.
>> The original can be lubed at your choice. When the 1 ton bearing fails.
> You
>> need to go buy the entire wheel bearing assembly. The original bearings
> in
>> my 39 year old GMC have never been greased till now. I'll stick with
> what
>> GM did.
>>
>> Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale.
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> --
> Rick Denney
> 73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
> Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322039 is a reply to message #322007] Sun, 13 August 2017 21:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15236
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 39
Senior Member
Rick & Jim,

I'm sorry but I'm going to disagree with you on a number of points, I have hubs and knuckles installed that were reworked by Dave
Lenzi on Double Trouble, The Blue Streak, and a set to be installed on the Kingsley.

I did not go with the one ton because I wanted to retain the OEM system for reasons I will not detail on the GMC Net for fear of
getting a lot of people's nose out of joint. I would be happy to provide my reasons to anyone who wants them OFF NET; my email
address is robmueller-AT-iinet-DOT-net-DOT-au.

I will insert comments in CAPS below in your emails for clarity, I'm not shouting.

Before I go into detail I'd like to provide this link on Gene Fishers website for review:

http://gmcmotorhome.info/front.html#ZERK

Aw, what the hell I'll save people time and trouble here's what it says:

KNUCKLE ZERK MOUNTING
(100,000 mile bearings)
There is a poorly kept secret (only the 300 who go to rallies know, because the talks are never published ;>) that the bearings on
the GMC can go well over 100,000 miles without any problems. The most traumatic thing you can do to the front end of your GMC is to
grease the bearings by removing the hub and knuckle to check and remove the bearings, and we are supposed to do this every 25,000
miles.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of Richard Denney
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 2:37 AM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint

Bob, lubing the original bearing requires a massive disassembly using tools that cost hundreds of dollars.

I AGREE GREASING THE FRONT WHEEL BEARINGS IS A LOT OF WORK, HOWEVER, IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO BUY THE TOOLS, YOU CAN BORROW THEM. I
KNOW THE MIDWEST CLASSICS HAS A SET. YES, YOU MIGHT BE UP FOR POSTAGE COSTS.

You can drill them for zerks, but that also requires massive disassembly using those same tools, and not making a mistake.

HERE'S A LINK TO A DRAWING SHOWING HOW TO DRILL FOR THE ZERK:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/knuckle-zerks/p5987-zerk-bearing-early-drawing-by-alex-birch-2c-shows-slant-drilling.html

HERE'S A LINK THAT SHOWS THE TOOL:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/the-zerk-mod/p28898-cimg0999-small.html

OR WHEN YOU REPLACE THE HUBS AND KNUCKLES JUST ORDER THEM DRILLED FOR THE GREASE ZERK. THEY ARE AVAILABLE FROM JIMK, JIMB, DAVE
LENZI, AND OTHER SUPPLIERS.

Even then, the lubing requires the same disassembly as replacing the 1-ton bearing (loosening the axle and backing it off the face
seal to avoid blowing it out).

HERE'S A LINK THAT SHOWS HOW TO GREASE THE ZERK:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g4641-greasing-front-bearings-with-zerk-fittings.html

YOU ALSO NEED TO CLEAN THE CV JOINT AND BACK OF THE KNUCKLE VERY WELL TO PRECLUDE ANY CONTAMINATION FROM GETTING IN WHEN YOU PUSH
THE CV JOINT INWARDS.

If the one-ton bearing fails, it can be replaced cheaply and very much more easily than the original--like an hour versus a weekend.
And you can buy four of them for the price of the tool required to disassemble the original.

IF YOU REPLACE THE HUBS AND KNUCKLES WITH A SET FROM DAVE LENZI THAT HAS A ZERK FITTED THAT YOU LUBRICATE REGULARLY THE CHANCES OF
HAVING A BEARING FAILURE DIMINISH EXPONENTIALLY. I'VE PUT OVER 40,000 MILES ON DOUBLE TROUBLE SINCE I INSTALLED HIS HUBS AND
KNUCKLES. I GREASE THEM ONCE A YEAR BEFORE I STORE IT. LAST TIME I DISCUSSED THIS WITH DAVE HE NOTED HIS BEARINGS HAD OVER 100,000
MILES ON THEM.

That disassembly of the original should be done every 25,000 miles, and putting in zerks doesn't mean it won't ever have to be done
again, especially if the control arms on my '73 fatigue and crack.

THE REQUIREMENT TO LUBE THEM EVERY 25,000 MILES IS BECAUSE OF THE GREASE AVAILABLE BACK IN THE 1970'S THE DID NOT HAVE MOBIL 1 OR
VALVOLINE SYNPOWER.

The geometry issue is somewhat theoretical in our application.

AS NOTED ABOVE I COULD CONTEST THAT STATEMENT, HOWEVER, I WILL NOT DO SO ON THE GMC NET.

Bearing and ball-joint failures are not--I've had both. Both can be catastrophic.

I'VE BEEN FORTUNATE; I REPLACED THE HUBS, KNUCKLES, AND LOWER CONTROL ARMS ON DOUBLE TROUBLE AND THE BLUE STREAK SHORTLY AFTER
PURCHASE. I ALSO INSTALLED A SET OF DAVE'S UPPER CONTROL ARMS AND CAN GET 5? OF CASTER NO PROBLEM.

Rick "not letting theory trump experience" Denney

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of James Hupy
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 8:55 AM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint

Work on a whole lot of GMC coaches. I have seen more of them come apart in small crumbling pieces than I can remember. PARTICULARLY
THE 73-4-5 ERA COACHES. Lower control arms, lower ball joints, hubs, knuckles, rotors, outer C.V. joints, torsion bar sockets
twisted in the lower control arms, lower control arm bushings.

I AGREE, THE 1973 LOWER CONTROL ARMS HAD PROBLEMS, AND REQUIRE HEAPS OF WORK (JIMK WON'T TAKE THEM AS CORES), HOWEVER, I THOUGHT GMC
CORRECTED THE PROBLEMS IN 74. MY AVIONS WERE MANUFACTURED IN OCTOBER AND NOVEMBER OF 1974 AND THE LOWER CONTROL ARMS ARE WAY
DIFFERENT FROM THE 1973 CONTROL ARMS AND SERVICEABLE. HOWEVER, BEING THE ANALLY RETENTIVE PERFECTIONIST THAT I AM I REPLACED THE
ONES ON DOUBLE TROUBLE WITH A SET FROM STEVE FERGUSON AND REWORKED THE ONES ON THE BLUE STREAK HERE IN SYDNEY WITH HIS HELP. I WILL
REWORK THE ONES ON THE KINGSLEY WHEN I REPLACE THE HUBS AND KNUCKLES. STEVE HAS POSTED A HEAP OF PHOTOS OF WHAT HE DOES TO REINFORCE
THEM ON THE PHOTO SITE http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/u32-botiemad.html HE ALSO DID A PRESENTATION ENTITLED "GETTING YOUR GMC
UNDER CONTROL" http://gmcws.org/blog/?p=1292

Rarely ever see anything wrong with the upper control arms, or bushings, or upper ball joints, particularly the original equipment
stuff.

I AGREE, THE UPPER CONTROL ARMS DO NOT CARRY ANY OF THE GMC'S WEIGHT THEY LOCATE THE UPPER BALL JOINT FOR ALIGNMENT PURPOSES.

Lots and lots of loose or missing bolts and nuts on the ball joints, particularly the 5/16" stuff on the replacement ball joints.

I AGREE, THE 5/16" BOLTS SHOULD BE REPLACED WITH GRADE 8 3/8" NATIONAL FINE BOLTS. RED LOCKTITE SHOULD BE APPLIED AND THEY SHOULD BE
TORQUED TO THE MAX. THE BOLTS ON DOUBLE TROUBLE WERE INSTALLED USING THAT METHOD IN 2008 AND HAVE NOT COME LOOSE.

Steve Ferguson had a bunch of tricks that he used to cure the control arms, some quite extensive involving cutting out original
braces, welding in reinforcements, then fabrication of heavier stuff and re-welding them in
place of the originals.

YEP, STEVE BUILT LOWER CONTROL ARMS THAT WERE FAR SUPERIOR TO THE OEM, AS MENTIONED ABOVE GO TO THE PHOTO SITE
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/u32-botiemad.html AND YOU'LL FIND STEP BY STEP PHOTOS OF HIS PROCESS. HE ALSO DID A PRESENTATION
ENTITLED "GETTING YOUR GMC UNDER CONTROL." http://gmcws.org/blog/?p=1292

I have installed a whole bunch of 1 ton kits. Some of the earliest ones built by Bill Hubler from Caldwell, Idaho, and later by
Manny T. I have not had the opportunity to ever replace any of the 1 ton hubs, knuckles, or wheel bearings, yet. The only failure I
have seen is when the inner C.V. joint bolts work loose, and fall out under way. Makes one hell of a racket and leaves you dead in
the water if you don't have replacement bolts with you. Most cases can be directly traced back to improper installation of the
bolts. The drive axle wants to rotate before the bolts are tightened sufficiently, and no blue loctite was used at install.
Jim Hupy

THE ONE TON KIT WORKS AS DEMONSTRATED BY EXPERIENCE, HOWEVER, AS NOTED AT THE VERY START I WANTED TO STAY WITH THE OEM SYSTEM FOR
REASONS I WILL NOT PUBLISH ON THE GMC NET. AS FAR AS THE INNER CV JOINTS COMING LOOSE THE BOLTS ON DOUBLE TROUBLE AND THE BLUE
STREAK HAVE BEEN DRILLED AND SAFETY WIRED, SEE SIGNATURE LINE BELOW.

ROB "THE PEDANTIC MECHANIC" MUELLER :-)


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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322044 is a reply to message #322039] Sun, 13 August 2017 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Richard Denney is currently offline  Richard Denney   United States
Messages: 483
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 1
Senior Member
Rob,

Very few of the things you describe are easy to do, even for someone with
mechanical skills, and having them done costs very much more than the
one-ton kit. Strengthened lower control arms and bushings alone,
considering the unreturnability of my cores, costs more than the one-ton
kit, and that doesn't include ball joints, knuckles, hubs, rotors, and
halfshafts that come with the kit. And all of those on my coach also have
over 100,000 miles on them. Replacing all that with rebuilt original stuff
costs about $3K just for parts, and the labor is greater than with the
one-ton kit.

Photos of what Steve Ferguson does to strengthen '73 lower control arms
just make me realize how much I need to replace them. The pictures don't
provide much guidance--I'm not going to be cutting and welding them. That
would NOT make me feel safer. :)

I've heard Dave's talks several times, and I know it's possible to get good
service from the stock bearings, if everything is kept perfect. Making it
perfect in the first place is the tricky bit, and it usually requires using
knuckles and hubs that have been spray-welded back to original size. When I
bought a knuckle from him (in 2008), one that had a zerk installed wasn't
available. And then the spacer still has to have grooves cut in it to pass
injected grease. And I still worry about the knuckle I didn't replace. I
certainly didn't have time to drill for zerks--I barely had time to get the
project done as it was, and still park next to you in Delaware. I had not
known it had failed and discovered it when I was removing it to replace a
CV boot.

There have been lots of vehicles that have camber that varies with
suspension travel, including the old Ford twin I-beam suspension. Those
weren't great--they have faults common to all swing axles--but they also
weren't race cars. And they were serviceable. Camber increasing with jounce
isn't really such a terrible thing for vehicles the understeer severely as
we hope a GMC will do. A few have the skills to notice a difference, though
it's hard to compare unless one is willing to take the coach to the limit
of adhesion. The vast majority of people only notice an improvement, maybe
because they restored their coach to a state of good repair for the first
time in their experience.

And then there's the 12" brakes.

Rick "for whom time is even more elusive than money" Denney



On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 10:09 PM Rob Mueller
wrote:

> Rick & Jim,
>
> I'm sorry but I'm going to disagree with you on a number of points, I have
> hubs and knuckles installed that were reworked by Dave
> Lenzi on Double Trouble, The Blue Streak, and a set to be installed on the
> Kingsley.
>
> --
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322048 is a reply to message #322044] Sun, 13 August 2017 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15236
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 39
Senior Member
Rick,

You weighed up your situation and decided installing the one ton was best for you. I weighed up my situation and decided upgrading
the OEM suspension was best for me.

And that's that. :-)

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of Richard Denney
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 1:27 PM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint

Rob,

Very few of the things you describe are easy to do, even for someone with mechanical skills, and having them done costs very much
more than the one-ton kit. Strengthened lower control arms and bushings alone, considering the unreturnability of my cores, costs
more than the one-ton kit, and that doesn't include ball joints, knuckles, hubs, rotors, and halfshafts that come with the kit. And
all of those on my coach also have
over 100,000 miles on them. Replacing all that with rebuilt original stuff costs about $3K just for parts, and the labor is greater
than with the one-ton kit.

Photos of what Steve Ferguson does to strengthen '73 lower control arms just make me realize how much I need to replace them. The
pictures don't provide much guidance--I'm not going to be cutting and welding them. That would NOT make me feel safer. :)

I've heard Dave's talks several times, and I know it's possible to get good service from the stock bearings, if everything is kept
perfect. Making it perfect in the first place is the tricky bit, and it usually requires using
knuckles and hubs that have been spray-welded back to original size. When I bought a knuckle from him (in 2008), one that had a zerk
installed wasn't available. And then the spacer still has to have grooves cut in it to pass injected grease. And I still worry about
the knuckle I didn't replace. I certainly didn't have time to drill for zerks--I barely had time to get the project done as it was,
and still park next to you in Delaware. I had not
known it had failed and discovered it when I was removing it to replace a CV boot.

There have been lots of vehicles that have camber that varies with suspension travel, including the old Ford twin I-beam suspension.
Those weren't great--they have faults common to all swing axles--but they also weren't race cars. And they were serviceable. Camber
increasing with jounce isn't really such a terrible thing for vehicles the understeer severely as we hope a GMC will do. A few have
the skills to notice a difference, though it's hard to compare unless one is willing to take the coach to the limit of adhesion. The
vast majority of people only notice an improvement, maybe because they restored their coach to a state of good repair for the first
time in their experience.

And then there's the 12" brakes.

Rick "for whom time is even more elusive than money" Denney



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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322052 is a reply to message #322048] Mon, 14 August 2017 05:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr ERFisher is currently offline  Mr ERFisher   United States
Messages: 6975
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 14
Senior Member
On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 9:28 PM Rob Mueller wrote:

> Rick,
>
> You weighed up your situation and decided installing the one ton was best
> for you. I weighed up my situation and decided upgrading
> the OEM suspension was best for me.
>
> And that's that. :-)
>

WHATS WHAT .?

>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of
> Richard Denney
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 1:27 PM
> To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint
>
> Rob,
>
> Very few of the things you describe are easy to do, even for someone with
> mechanical skills, and having them done costs very much
> more than the one-ton kit. Strengthened lower control arms and bushings
> alone, considering the unreturnability of my cores, costs
> more than the one-ton kit, and that doesn't include ball joints, knuckles,
> hubs, rotors, and halfshafts that come with the kit. And
> all of those on my coach also have
> over 100,000 miles on them. Replacing all that with rebuilt original stuff
> costs about $3K just for parts, and the labor is greater
> than with the one-ton kit.
>
> Photos of what Steve Ferguson does to strengthen '73 lower control arms
> just make me realize how much I need to replace them. The
> pictures don't provide much guidance--I'm not going to be cutting and
> welding them. That would NOT make me feel safer. :)
>
> I've heard Dave's talks several times, and I know it's possible to get
> good service from the stock bearings, if everything is kept
> perfect. Making it perfect in the first place is the tricky bit, and it
> usually requires using
> knuckles and hubs that have been spray-welded back to original size. When
> I bought a knuckle from him (in 2008), one that had a zerk
> installed wasn't available. And then the spacer still has to have grooves
> cut in it to pass injected grease. And I still worry about
> the knuckle I didn't replace. I certainly didn't have time to drill for
> zerks--I barely had time to get the project done as it was,
> and still park next to you in Delaware. I had not
> known it had failed and discovered it when I was removing it to replace a
> CV boot.
>
> There have been lots of vehicles that have camber that varies with
> suspension travel, including the old Ford twin I-beam suspension.
> Those weren't great--they have faults common to all swing axles--but they
> also weren't race cars. And they were serviceable. Camber
> increasing with jounce isn't really such a terrible thing for vehicles the
> understeer severely as we hope a GMC will do. A few have
> the skills to notice a difference, though it's hard to compare unless one
> is willing to take the coach to the limit of adhesion. The
> vast majority of people only notice an improvement, maybe because they
> restored their coach to a state of good repair for the first
> time in their experience.
>
> And then there's the 12" brakes.
>
> Rick "for whom time is even more elusive than money" Denney
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322055 is a reply to message #322052] Mon, 14 August 2017 07:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15236
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 39
Senior Member
Read this thread from the start and it WHAT will be evident.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of gene Fisher
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 8:30 PM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 9:28 PM Rob Mueller wrote:

> Rick,
>
> You weighed up your situation and decided installing the one ton was best
> for you. I weighed up my situation and decided upgrading
> the OEM suspension was best for me.
>
> And that's that. :-)
>

WHATS WHAT .?

>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org] On Behalf Of
> Richard Denney
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 1:27 PM
> To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint
>
> Rob,
>
> Very few of the things you describe are easy to do, even for someone with
> mechanical skills, and having them done costs very much
> more than the one-ton kit. Strengthened lower control arms and bushings
> alone, considering the unreturnability of my cores, costs
> more than the one-ton kit, and that doesn't include ball joints, knuckles,
> hubs, rotors, and halfshafts that come with the kit. And
> all of those on my coach also have
> over 100,000 miles on them. Replacing all that with rebuilt original stuff
> costs about $3K just for parts, and the labor is greater
> than with the one-ton kit.
>
> Photos of what Steve Ferguson does to strengthen '73 lower control arms
> just make me realize how much I need to replace them. The
> pictures don't provide much guidance--I'm not going to be cutting and
> welding them. That would NOT make me feel safer. :)
>
> I've heard Dave's talks several times, and I know it's possible to get
> good service from the stock bearings, if everything is kept
> perfect. Making it perfect in the first place is the tricky bit, and it
> usually requires using
> knuckles and hubs that have been spray-welded back to original size. When
> I bought a knuckle from him (in 2008), one that had a zerk
> installed wasn't available. And then the spacer still has to have grooves
> cut in it to pass injected grease. And I still worry about
> the knuckle I didn't replace. I certainly didn't have time to drill for
> zerks--I barely had time to get the project done as it was,
> and still park next to you in Delaware. I had not
> known it had failed and discovered it when I was removing it to replace a
> CV boot.
>
> There have been lots of vehicles that have camber that varies with
> suspension travel, including the old Ford twin I-beam suspension.
> Those weren't great--they have faults common to all swing axles--but they
> also weren't race cars. And they were serviceable. Camber
> increasing with jounce isn't really such a terrible thing for vehicles the
> understeer severely as we hope a GMC will do. A few have
> the skills to notice a difference, though it's hard to compare unless one
> is willing to take the coach to the limit of adhesion. The
> vast majority of people only notice an improvement, maybe because they
> restored their coach to a state of good repair for the first
> time in their experience.
>
> And then there's the 12" brakes.
>
> Rick "for whom time is even more elusive than money" Denney
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org


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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322066 is a reply to message #321991] Mon, 14 August 2017 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pjburt is currently offline  pjburt   United States
Messages: 204
Registered: February 2016
Location: Fresno, California
Karma: 1
Senior Member
I'm enjoying and learning from this discussion.

This thread started as a FIY regarding loose bolts on the lower ball joints. Along with checking the bolts, we need to check that the replaced ball joints are properly seated. I have read about what to look for and how to fix it but can't find the article again. Has anyone got the link to the how-to handy? Thanks


Patti & Jerry Burt
73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands - 77 Palm Beach Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS - Pacific Cruisers - 49ers
Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322089 is a reply to message #322066] Mon, 14 August 2017 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ronald Pottol is currently offline  Ronald Pottol   United States
Messages: 464
Registered: September 2012
Location: Redwood City, California
Karma: 0
Senior Member
I've found this very informative. I bought my coach this spring, had
Applied inspect it, they said it would soon need a front end rebuild.

It's a 1973 with 80k+ miles. I think I'll go with the one ton. I hope it
isn't another wet winter.

On Aug 14, 2017 08:54, "Jerry Burt" wrote:

> I'm enjoying and learning from this discussion.
>
> This thread started as a FIY regarding loose bolts on the lower ball
> joints. Along with checking the bolts, we need to check that the replaced
> ball
> joints are properly seated. I have read about what to look for and how to
> fix it but can't find the article again. Has anyone got the link to the
> how-to handy? Thanks
> --
> Patti & Jerry Burt
> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
> 77 Palm Beach
> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS - Pacific Cruisers - 49ers
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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1973 26' GM outfitted
Re: [GMCnet] Check your Lower A arm ball joint [message #322125 is a reply to message #322024] Tue, 15 August 2017 00:56 Go to previous message
BobDunahugh is currently offline  BobDunahugh   United States
Messages: 1503
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
Senior Member
Rob Mueller covered it well. Do what fits YOUR needs. And I'm saying. Know the up, and down sides of each completely. Then make your choice. The original bearing has been dependable. I know more of those bearings that have never been re greased. Then have. My GMC front bearings had never been serviced. So I put in Dave's with the zerk. The GMC that I put the 1 ton in. There was more bad then good. In that case. The 1 ton was a cheep alternative. If it's just the a case of front wheel bearing service. I'd just do that. At least we have choices. Bob Dunahugh


________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 4:16 PM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: RE: Check your Lower A arm ball joint


Richard. We all need to do what puts us in OUR own comfort zone. I put a 1 ton years ago in a friends 78 Royale. Then drove it. I didn't like how it handled. When most people put the 1 ton in. They love it. But their comparing it to the poor handling coach they had before the install. I do high speed road racing. I'm very picky about handling.Our first GMC had 128,000 miles on it, and 25 years before the front bearings got the first grease change. Nice life span. Barrowed the tool. They were fine. So I greased them. That was the 50 cents. Seals were still soft. Put another 52,000 miles on them. When that GMC burned. I put those knuckles in another GMC after an inspection/lube. Bearings and seals still fine. Got 2 knuckles from Dave Linzi with the grease zerks. Lot less then the 1 ton. Another 50 to 75,000 miles ( if I'm still alive ) I'll loosen the axle nut, and put another 50 cents of grease in them. Then tighten the axle nut. And I can still drive my GMC with two fingers all day. If the 1 ton puts you in your comfort zone. I'd do it. I never will. Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale



________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 12:26 AM
To: gmclist-AT-list-DOT-gmcnet-DOT-org
Subject: RE: Check your Lower A arm ball joint


Larry found those bolts on our 78 GMC in need of snugging up a little. ( Thanks so much for checking Larry ) Never thought that those BJ had ever been replaced with 74,000 on the clock. So I went looking in the log book. Replaced at 38,000 miles. And there are no other front end parts replaced. As to the 1 ton. I never disagree with Ken Henderson. But I have a different OPPINION on the I ton. Reasons. It puts a heavier load on the torsion bars, and related attacked supports. Doesn't have standard SAE A frame geometry. As to the lifetime lubed bearing. That lifetime stands until the bearing fails. Thus you can't spend the 50 cents in grease that 1 ton bearing. Many GMC owners have never greased their original bearing. The original can be lubed at your choice. When the 1 ton bearing fails. You need to go buy the entire wheel bearing assembly. The original bearings in my 39 year old GMC have never been greased till now. I'll stick with what GM did.

Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale.
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