Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266546 is a reply to message #266542] |
Sat, 22 November 2014 20:30   |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I've done a lot of research into u-joints to get rid of vibration in my vette.
I really don't think its an issue in steering.
The problem is that when a u-joint is rotated while at an angle, the bearings travel in an ellipse. If the u-joints are in the same phase you get vibration. If the u-joint angles are EQUAL AND OPPOSITE, then the ellipses are opposite and you you get cancellation and no vibration.
Vibration caused by phase angle issue are 4 times the rotation speed ( or is it 2x?? )
The steering shaft has a number of differences from a drive shaft.
1. The angles are not equal and opposite. The top angle is way bigger than the bottom. Even if phased correctly there will be vibration
2. The vibration speed will be 4 x (1 or 2) RPM max, 0 driving most of the time, but I really doubt you could feel it. If you can, I doubt you'd care
3. The original shaft only has 1 u-joint, there is no cancellation in that system. No one cares
4. Road feedback will most likely completely swamp and nonlinearity in the steering.
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266547 is a reply to message #266542] |
Sat, 22 November 2014 20:35 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Rob, the Flaming river / borgson solution will have a slightly different, and easier alignment procedure.
The new ujoints don't have the same cross bolt the OEM version does so it cam be put on anyway you want. You only want to make sure the steering wheel and the steering box are centered. The rest no longer matters.
Basically;
1. Center and lock steering wheel from rotating
2. Center and lock steering box from rotating
3. install new shaft and tighten all bolts
4. Crack a old one and sip leisurely
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266554 is a reply to message #265311] |
Sat, 22 November 2014 22:50 |
<rallymaster
Messages: 361
Registered: May 2014
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Sounds like time for a 1 ton front end conversion.
RonC\
On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 17:23:02 -0700 Kerry Pinkerton
writes:
> Karen, the problem is because of the mix of manufacturers. If you
> took either of those and put it on both ends, it would be in phase.
> Obviously, it
> wouldn't fit the needed splines but I'm confident you can find both
> ends from the same manufacturer.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also
> a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266557 is a reply to message #265311] |
Sun, 23 November 2014 06:41 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
ASSUMING... ASSUMING...that GMC designed everything so that the steering column splines match in alignment (ie, #1 spline at 12 o'clock or similar (zero degrees)), Keith's procedure will be exactly what is needed. If GMC did not but corrected it in the 6 bolt mid plate, the MOST you could be off would be some fraction of one spline...a few degrees. Based on what Alex is seeing with many coaches off 60, 120 or even 180 degrees, I'd think even off a couple degrees would be a VAST improvement over how most coaches on the road today are set.
If, on the other hand, GMC built the steering shaft to simply span the gap between a centered lower box and a centered steering column and welded the top and bottom ends together in the 6 bolt mid plate to correct any alignment of splines issues, then this new shaft could be off a couple degrees. Might that make a noticeable difference? I don't have a clue.
The Ujoint manufacturer would have to have their splines clocked appropriately also. For example, if the top Ujoint was made so that #1 spline was at zero degrees, but the bottom Ujoint which has a different spline count the #1 spline started at 2 degrees, there could be a misalignment. However, from a manufacturing standpoint, I'd be amazed if they would let that happen.
Regarding the STRENGTH of the units as discussed earlier, it occurred to me that our shafts are an interesting mix of components. We have this HUGE honking slip joint that looks like it came out of a Sherman tank that lead to splined connections to the column and steering box. The weak point in the shaft is the splines. I'm sure one of our engineers can tell us how much it will take to strip the splines on the end of the standard GM steering column but I'm willing to they will strip LONG before the aftermarket Ujoints or DD shaft will fail.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266569 is a reply to message #266551] |
Sun, 23 November 2014 13:44 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
USAussie wrote on Sat, 22 November 2014 21:52Keith,
It seems I've pissed one person off today and PLEASE don't let what I ask below make it two!
Just want to confirm that with steps 1 & 2 as stated below the splines in the top and bottom of the Flaming River or Borgeson
U-joints will be in alignment with the splines on the bottom of the steering column and the steering box input and it will just slip
in?
Ha ha Rob, no problem  you have to try a lot harder to piss me off than that.
regarding the spline alignment, that and the next message by kerry have a good point. there will be the possibility of being off one spline, the lower shaft has 36 splines so one spline is 10 degrees, the upper 48 so thats 7.5 degrees. So worst case is youre off exactly 1/2 spline, 5 degrees on the bottom, or the upper is 3.75 degrees max.
that could be enough to be an issue maybe
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266581 is a reply to message #266557] |
Sun, 23 November 2014 17:09 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kerry,
A) If the steering wheel is installed so that horizontal bars are perpendicular to mark on the spline at the top of the steering
column and that mark is parallel to the fore / aft axis of the GMC:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56546-steering-column-splines.html
B) The lower steering shaft is assembled as per MM X-7625 / Section 9 / Page 9-3 / Figure 1 - Lower Steering Shaft (Disassembled),
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56545-lower-intermediate-steering-column.html
C) the steering box input spline is aligned as per:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56547-steering-box-input-shaft-alignment.html
The OEM parts will align everything properly.
As far as the strength of the OEM assembly goes I stumbled on to this photograph when searching the PhotoSite:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p56467-borgeson-intermediate-shaft-vs-oem-upper-column-shaft.html
This is Karen's photo and it shows that the shaft in the OEM column is virtually the same as the Borgeson column. This tells me from
a strength aspect the Borgeson setup is fine.
As far as the alignment between the steering column and the steering box using the Borgeson or Flaming River parts I cannot comment.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Pinkerton
ASSUMING... ASSUMING...that GMC designed everything so that the steering column splines match in alignment (ie, #1 spline at 12
o'clock or similar (zero degrees)), Keith's procedure will be exactly what is needed. If GMC did not but corrected it in the 6 bolt
mid plate, the MOST you could be off would be some fraction of one spline...a few degrees. Based on what Alex is seeing with many
coaches off 60, 120 or even 180 degrees, I'd think even off a couple degrees would be a VAST improvement over how most coaches on
the road today are set.
If, on the other hand, GMC built the steering shaft to simply span the gap between a centered lower box and a centered steering
column and welded the top and bottom ends together in the 6 bolt mid plate to correct any alignment of splines issues, then this new
shaft could be off a couple degrees. Might that make a noticeable difference? I don't have a clue.
The Ujoint manufacturer would have to have their splines clocked appropriately also. For example, if the top Ujoint was made so
that #1 spline was at zero degrees, but the bottom Ujoint which has a different spline count the #1 spline started at 2 degrees,
there could be a misalignment. However, from a manufacturing standpoint, I'd be amazed if they would let that happen.
Regarding the STRENGTH of the units as discussed earlier, it occurred to me that our shafts are an interesting mix of components.
We have this HUGE honking slip joint that looks like it came out of a Sherman tank that lead to splined connections to the column
and steering box. The weak point in the shaft is the splines. I'm sure one of our engineers can tell us how much it will take to
strip the splines on the end of the standard GM steering column but I'm willing to they will strip LONG before the aftermarket
Ujoints or DD shaft will fail.
Kerry
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266594 is a reply to message #266569] |
Sun, 23 November 2014 19:55 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Keith,
Great!
From research I've done on the steering box and discussions I've had with Dave Lenzi I am of the OPINION that any amount the
steering box is off center is going to cause steering wander.
While I'm down in Adelaide working with Peter Bailey I'll see if we can figger out how to determine how many degrees it takes for
the steering to get sloppy.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith V
Ha ha Rob, no problem :) you have to try a lot harder to piss me off than that.
regarding the spline alignment, that and the next message by kerry have a good point. there will be the possibility of being off one
spline, the lower shaft has 36 splines so one spline is 10 degrees, the upper 48 so thats 7.5 degrees. So worst case is youre off
exactly 1/2 spline, 5 degrees on the bottom, or the upper is 3.75 degrees max.
that could be enough to be an issue maybe
Keith Vasilakes
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266804 is a reply to message #266569] |
Wed, 26 November 2014 14:32 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Keith V wrote on Sun, 23 November 2014 11:44
regarding the spline alignment, that and the next message by kerry have a good point. there will be the possibility of being off one spline, the lower shaft has 36 splines so one spline is 10 degrees, the upper 48 so thats 7.5 degrees. So worst case is youre off exactly 1/2 spline, 5 degrees on the bottom, or the upper is 3.75 degrees max.
that could be enough to be an issue maybe
I think there's an interaction between the two splines that reduce the maximum offset even more.
Eg, very worst case the lower spline is off by 5 degrees (one-half spline). Then you still have the steering wheel alignment to contend with,
which is off by a maximum of 3.75 degrees. Seems like those two would be subtractive -- ie, plus or minus 3.75 from the 5 degrees offset, for a total
absolute maximum possible misalignment of the steering wheel of 1.25 degrees when the wheels are pointed straight ahead. You could probably
get it even closer by pulling the steering wheel off of its splined fitting and moving it over one.
At least that seems like how it should work... not sure what I'm missing.
I've a suspicion the different shaft size and spline counts they chose weren't accidental.
Karen
1975 26'
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266806 is a reply to message #266594] |
Wed, 26 November 2014 14:52 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Just as a related side note, I was studying Don Wirth's excellent article about the steering box:
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Wirth_GMCMH_Steering_Box.pdf
In it, he asserts that our steering box has a 3/4" 24-spline shaft. (I assume he meant 3/4"-30, with 6 missing for the flat).
This confused me, so I double checked ours, which for sure is a 13/16"-36 spline shaft, just like Jim Fawcett found with his.
Don's test for checking the size is correct: a 3/4" 12-point socket WILL fit on a 13/16"-36 splined shaft just fine.
To test for a 3/4" shaft, you actually need (I think) an 11/16" socket because the teeth of the socket fit into the
grooves of the spline, which is a smaller diameter circle. The 3/4" boxes are more common since the 13/16" size was only
used up until about 1977.
At any rate, if you went to a junkyard armed with Don's suggestion on checking shaft sizes using a 3/4" 12-point socket, you'd be fine.
However, if you just ordered a steering box with a 3/4" shaft based on his article, you'd never be able to get your OEM steering pinch bolt
tightened correctly on the steering shaft. Made me wonder if there might be a few GMC's out there with wrong size steering boxes,
and also if any 1978 coaches were equipped with the later sized boxes.
Karen
1975 26'
USAussie wrote on Sun, 23 November 2014 17:55Keith,
From research I've done on the steering box and discussions I've had with Dave Lenzi I am of the OPINION that any amount the
steering box is off center is going to cause steering wander.
While I'm down in Adelaide working with Peter Bailey I'll see if we can figger out how to determine how many degrees it takes for
the steering to get sloppy.
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #266815 is a reply to message #266806] |
Wed, 26 November 2014 16:20 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Karen,
As I will be heading down to Adelaide to work with Peter Bailey on the step by step photographic procedure I called him the other
day to check and see if he had a deep well socket that would go over the steering box input spline so we can perform the over center
adjustment in the Maintenance Manual. He has a spare steering box and he verified that a 12 point 3/4 inch socket will go over the
input spline for the procedure.
IIRC in discussions with Dave Lenzi about the steering boxes I THINK he noted that there are steering boxes that have METRIC input
shafts! I'm going to call him later today for another regarding the steering box and I'll verify that.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: KB
Just as a related side note, I was studying Don Wirth's excellent article about the steering box:
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Wirth_GMCMH_Steering_Box.pdf
In it, he asserts that our steering box has a 3/4" 24-spline shaft. (I assume he meant 3/4"-30, with 6 missing for the flat).
This confused me, so I double checked ours, which for sure is a 13/16"-36 spline shaft, just like Jim Fawcett found with his.
Don's test for checking the size is correct: a 3/4" 12-point socket WILL fit on a 13/16"-36 splined shaft just fine.
To test for a 3/4" shaft, you actually need (I think) an 11/16" socket because the teeth of the socket fit into the
grooves of the spline, which is a smaller diameter circle. The 3/4" boxes are more common since the 13/16" size was only
used up until about 1977.
At any rate, if you went to a junkyard armed with Don's suggestion on checking shaft sizes using a 3/4" 12-point socket, you'd be
fine.
However, if you just ordered a steering box with a 3/4" shaft based on his article, you'd never be able to get your OEM steering
pinch bolt tightened correctly on the steering shaft. Made me wonder if there might be a few GMC's out there with wrong size
steering boxes, and also if any 1978 coaches were equipped with the later sized boxes.
Karen
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #267800 is a reply to message #266539] |
Thu, 18 December 2014 15:43 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
kerry pinkerton wrote on Sat, 22 November 2014 16:23Karen, the problem is because of the mix of manufacturers. If you took either of those and put it on both ends, it would be in phase. Obviously, it wouldn't fit the needed splines but I'm confident you can find both ends from the same manufacturer.
just another minor update. I finally got the second Borgeson joint (takes a couple of weeks) and it IS indeed correctly phased with the first Borgeson joint
as Kerry suggested.
So, while both Flaming River and Borgeson u-joints will fit on a DD shaft from either manufacturer, you (apparently) can not mix and match the joints.
Ie, you need either two Borgeson joints, or two Flaming River joints for the phasing to be correct.
I liked the look of the Flaming River joint a lot more, but they're only good to 30 degrees (vs 35 degrees for Borgeson)
and I think we need all the angle we can get for our upper steering joint.
I haven't installed these joints on our coach yet. Still need a test drive with the re-aligned steering box before deciding. (ie, one change at a time...)
Karen
1975 26'
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #281393 is a reply to message #281388] |
Fri, 03 July 2015 12:05 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
A Hamilto wrote on Fri, 03 July 2015 09:36KB wrote on Thu, 18 December 2014 15:43...So, while both Flaming River and Borgeson u-joints will fit on a DD shaft from either manufacturer, you (apparently) can not mix and match the joints.
I.E., you need either two Borgeson joints, or two Flaming River joints for the phasing to be correct. ... I don't remember if I posted this in the original thread, but phasing is irrelevant in the steering mechanism. That tiny fraction of a rotation when one speeds up and the other slows down won't even be noticeable by a human turning a wheel.
On a drive shaft it will vibrate like h3!! and ruin the bearings on each end. But on the steering shaft, nada.
That seems reasonable, but it doesn't hurt anything to pick joints with correct phasing which could (in theory) work better.
Karen
1975 26'
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] lower steering shaft complete new replacement [message #281398 is a reply to message #281394] |
Fri, 03 July 2015 13:33 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I used Borgeson parts through out. I used Borgeson # 154943 for the 3/4 DD x 1" 48 that incorporates a vibration damper, the other 1" DD x 13/16-36 (115240) and a telescoping steering shaft (450024).
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Tue Apr 23 01:51:12 CDT 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.03629 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
