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OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265349]

Mon, 03 November 2014 11:59

midlf

Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)

Karma: 1

Senior Member

I know you cannot use the original lug nuts on Alcoa wheels.

However can Alcoa lug nuts be used on a steel wheel?

I'm asking because my spare is on a 16" steel wheel and I really don't want to have to carry, and find if needed, a set of OEM lugnuts.

Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI

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Re: OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265358 is a reply to message #265349]

Mon, 03 November 2014 13:15

Otterwan

Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...

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The Alcoa lug nuts are not torqued as high as the steel wheel lug nuts, if I recall correctly 145 ft/lbs vs 250 ft/lbs. I don't know if the Alcoa lug nut would take that torque.

You already have 3 stock lug nuts holding your spare on the carrier. Is carrying 5 more that much trouble?

1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."

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Re: OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265360 is a reply to message #265358]

Mon, 03 November 2014 13:19

tphipps

Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL

Karma: 9

Senior Member

I have Alcoa Lug nuts on my 16" steel wheels. Torqued to Alcoa specs, I have yet to have one loosen. There are recommendations to reduce the torque on the OEM lug nuts.
Of all the stuff I carry, lug nuts are not a major problem.
Tom, MS II

2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552 KA4CSG

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Re: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265368 is a reply to message #265358]

Mon, 03 November 2014 14:43

USAussie

Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Karma: 6

Senior Member

David,

The 250 ft lb spec has been discussed here MANY times and we have reached a consensus that it is WAY too high as it leads to broken
studs. IIRC most people torque their steel wheel lug nuts to the same torque as the Alcoa lug nuts.

Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: David Orders

The Alcoa lug nuts are not torqued as high as the steel wheel lug nuts, if I recall correctly 145 ft/lbs vs 250 ft/lbs. I don't know
if the Alcoa lug nut would take that torque.

You already have 3 stock lug nuts holding your spare on the carrier. Is carrying 5 more that much trouble?

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

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Re: OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265395 is a reply to message #265349]

Mon, 03 November 2014 20:40

Bob de Kruyff

Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

midlf wrote on Mon, 03 November 2014 10:59

I know you cannot use the original lug nuts on Alcoa wheels.

However can Alcoa lug nuts be used on a steel wheel?

I'm asking because my spare is on a 16" steel wheel and I really don't want to have to carry, and find if needed, a set of OEM lugnuts.

From an engineering standpoint these lug nuts have very different clamp mechanisms. My answer is absolutely not. I suppose super glue may work but i sure wouldn't do it!

Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

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Re: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265397 is a reply to message #265349]

Mon, 03 November 2014 20:47

Kosier

Messages: 834
Registered: February 2008

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Steve,

Alcoa didn't invent those lug nuts. My last employer had a 1-ton dually
Ford which used the same lug nuts. On steel wheels,
of course. Find some old time GMCers who remember Benny Hill, from Newark,
who had a '76 GMC new. He also had a
business called Contour Forming and manufactured 316SS wheel covers and
those same lug nuts with a closed top.
When we first got into GMCs, I got tired of losing wheel covers and went to
see Benny. He still had some wheel covers in
his warehouse.(no lug nuts.sorry) Another old gentleman who I used to give
a little labor to had a '76 Palm Beach with the
covers and nuts installed. They're both gone now, as are their coaches.
But, of course, I still have a set of the wheel
covers hanging on the wall out in the shop. They'll probably still be there
when I'm gone, thirty years from now. ROFLMAO

Gary Kosier
77 PB w/500 Cad
Newark, Oh

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Southworth
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 12:59 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts

I know you cannot use the original lug nuts on Alcoa wheels.

However can Alcoa lug nuts be used on a steel wheel?

I'm asking because my spare is on a 16" steel wheel and I really don't want
to have to carry, and find if needed, a set of OEM lugnuts.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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Re: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265402 is a reply to message #265395]

Mon, 03 November 2014 21:07

bdub

Messages: 1578
Registered: February 2004
Location: Central Texas

Karma: 5

Senior Member

Seems to me there's no difference except for the rotational friction. Why
not, Bob? If it works on aluminum, why not steel?

bdub

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist On Behalf Of Bob de Kruyff
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 8:40 PM

midlf wrote on Mon, 03 November 2014 10:59
can Alcoa lug nuts be used on a steel wheel?

--------------
From an engineering standpoint these lug nuts have very different clamp
mechanisms. My answer is absolutely not. I suppose super glue may work but i
sure wouldn't do it!

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bdub
'76 Palm Beach/Central Texas
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Re: OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265418 is a reply to message #265358]

Tue, 04 November 2014 09:38

midlf

Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Otterwan wrote on Mon, 03 November 2014 13:15

The Alcoa lug nuts are not torqued as high as the steel wheel lug nuts, if I recall correctly 145 ft/lbs vs 250 ft/lbs. I don't know if the Alcoa lug nut would take that torque.

You already have 3 stock lug nuts holding your spare on the carrier. Is carrying 5 more that much trouble?

The lug nuts on the spare are Alcoa type. Carring the OEM lug nuts is not the problem. I've got a bunch of them and they don't take a lot of space. Finding them in the GMC, after several years, could be a problem.

I figure the difference in torque between the OEM and the Alcoa is the Alcoa nuts have an integral washer that is supposed to be lubricated before use. The OEM is a flanged nut and requires significant additional torque to overcome the rotational friction of the nut on the wheel.

I hope BobDK elaborates on his comments. I'm an electric guy with no formal mechanical education.

Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI

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Re: OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265460 is a reply to message #265349]

Tue, 04 November 2014 21:05

RF_Burns

Messages: 2276
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada

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I'm not an Engineer, but I find it interesting that it takes 8 big-ass bolts in an 8" diameter to hold a wheel on.... but that same wheel's axle is held to the bogey by 4 much smaller bolts set in about a 4" diameter.

Just saying..

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

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Re: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265465 is a reply to message #265460]

Tue, 04 November 2014 21:49

USAussie

Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Karma: 6

Senior Member

Bruce,

Good point, IIRC the hub to disk / drum bolts are 1/2" x 13 and the wheel studs are 9/16" x 18.

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Hislop

I'm not an Engineer, but I find it interesting that it takes 8 big-ass bolts in an 8" diameter to hold a wheel on.... but that same
wheel's axle is held to the bogey by 4 much smaller bolts set in about a 4" diameter.

Just saying..

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

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Re: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265466 is a reply to message #265465]

Tue, 04 November 2014 22:04

Dennis S

Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005

Karma: 2

Senior Member

Just an observation -- if you have a GMC dually and add Alcoa wheels, the inside rear wheels and spare are still steel.
Do you think they recommend you carry two style lug nuts?

Dennis

USAussie wrote on Tue, 04 November 2014 21:49

Bruce,

Good point, IIRC the hub to disk / drum bolts are 1/2" x 13 and the wheel studs are 9/16" x 18.

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Hislop

I'm not an Engineer, but I find it interesting that it takes 8 big-ass bolts in an 8" diameter to hold a wheel on.... but that same
wheel's axle is held to the bogey by 4 much smaller bolts set in about a 4" diameter.

Just saying..

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro

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Re: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265472 is a reply to message #265466]

Tue, 04 November 2014 23:54

jimk

Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA

Karma: 9

Senior Member

Those that know the difference in the two nuts ar correct.
The original ones had friction at the outside diameter that required higher
specs.
The Alcoa design has a rotating washer that spin at a smaller diameter so
the torque need not be high.

On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Dennis Sexton wrote:

> Just an observation -- if you have a GMC dually and add Alcoa wheels, the
> inside rear wheels and spare are still steel.
> Do you think they recommend you carry two style lug nuts?
>
> Dennis
>
> USAussie wrote on Tue, 04 November 2014 21:49
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Good point, IIRC the hub to disk / drum bolts are 1/2" x 13 and the
> wheel studs are 9/16" x 18.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Bruce Hislop
>>
>> I'm not an Engineer, but I find it interesting that it takes 8 big-ass
> bolts in an 8" diameter to hold a wheel on.... but that same
>> wheel's axle is held to the bogey by 4 much smaller bolts set in about a
> 4" diameter.
>>
>> Just saying..
>>
>> --
>> Bruce Hislop
>> ON Canada
>> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
>> Hubler 1 ton front end
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
>> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
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>
>
> --
> Dennis S
> 73 Painted Desert 230
> Germantown, TN
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--
Jim Kanomata
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http://www.appliedgmc.com
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Re: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265488 is a reply to message #265466]

Wed, 05 November 2014 10:08

emerystora

Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004

Karma: 13

Senior Member

Let me try to understand what you are saying. Are you saying that you would put an Alcoa on the outside and leave a steel wheel on the inside?
That would not make sense as they would likely be different diameters.

If you put an Alcoa on you should install two of them and take off the inside steel wheel.

Obviously you are not talking about a GMC motorhome but a truck duel wheel setup.

Emery Stora

> On Nov 4, 2014, at 9:04 PM, Dennis Sexton wrote:
>
> Just an observation -- if you have a GMC dually and add Alcoa wheels, the inside rear wheels and spare are still steel.
> Do you think they recommend you carry two style lug nuts?
>
> Dennis
>

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Re: OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265505 is a reply to message #265349]

Wed, 05 November 2014 16:36

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

It is all easy to understand if you ever worked in Detroit. There is a word - Homologation - that means making as many parts as common as possible and using parts that may be sub-optimal because the part number exists in the system already and qualified suppliers are on line. We know the wheels are from the truck line. We know the 11x2 brakes were common to lots of things. To change them, some poor engineer had to have a really good reason. A new part number means a new quote and new tooling and another validation.

Emery,
Why an alloy wheel on the outside and a steel wheel on the inside?? Very simple answer.
Alloy wheels are thicker at the flange and two alloy wheels will usually leave too little stud.
I do know people that have taken the drive hub off and pressed in longer wheel studs so a pair of allow wheels will mount.

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265535 is a reply to message #265349]

Thu, 06 November 2014 07:38

kwharland

Messages: 246
Registered: November 2005
Location: Central Florida

Karma: 0

Senior Member

I'm going to stick my neck out here as I am a mechanical enginner but not a GMC or wheel expert, but I see no reason Alcoa type lugnuts can't be used on steel wheels. Are we sure they're not in some other vehicle application?

1978 Eleganza II

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Re: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265554 is a reply to message #265535]

Thu, 06 November 2014 13:14

Jim at the Co-op

Messages: 291
Registered: May 2014
Location: Orlando Florida

Karma: 2

Senior Member

The main reason for the torque spec difference is as Jim K. explained,
there is more friction to overcome with the one piece lug nuts. That 100
extra torque is probably to offset the friction there. I have used lug
nuts in both configurations. The high torque cut into the aluminum rim but
I made it home and lost no lug nuts. Putting Alcoa lug nuts on a steel rim
allos for chromed lug nuts look with a trim ring-- a nice look. I'm not
that wheel engineer but I saw no problems doing it in the field.

Jim bounds
--------------------------

On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 8:38 AM, Ken Harland wrote:

> I'm going to stick my neck out here as I am a mechanical enginner but not
> a GMC or wheel expert, but I see no reason Alcoa type lugnuts can't be used
> on steel wheels. Are we sure they're not in some other vehicle
> application?
> --
> 1978 Eleganza II
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Re: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265564 is a reply to message #265554]

Thu, 06 November 2014 16:43

midlf

Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)

Karma: 1

Senior Member

OK - I'm gonna throw 8 OEM lug nuts in the coach somewhere. Why? Why not. If I need to use the steel wheel spare I'll use the Alcoa Lug nuts. Why? Lower torque to install. 140 is doable in the field. The torque for the OEM is not so easy, whichever number you use.

Thanks for all the comments.

Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI

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Re: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265583 is a reply to message #265564]

Thu, 06 November 2014 23:27

hal kading

Messages: 642
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Cruces NM

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Steve,

I believe it was you who mentioned lubing the Alcoa nut to washer surface before use. I was not aware of that recommendation. Can you give a reference?

Hal Kading 78 Buskirk Las Cruces NM

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Re: [GMCnet] OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265589 is a reply to message #265583]

Fri, 07 November 2014 09:14

powerjon

Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004

Karma: 5

Senior Member

Hal,
I have always put a little (light film) silicone grease on the surface area of the washer that touches the aluminum wheel. I use it to reduce and try to eliminate the dissimilar metal corrosion between the steel nut and aluminum wheel. JMPC It also protects against salt corrosion too. As for the area where the nut itself interfaces with the washer I have always used a little ATF to protect against rust. I know that is a lessor problem where you live in NM, but in the Midwest it can be an issue. As you know, If you put a 140 ft/lbs on the nut it is not coming off. This is what I do, it has worked for me for 15 years.

JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion
Michigan

> On Nov 7, 2014, at 12:28 AM, Hal Kading wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> I believe it was you who mentioned lubing the Alcoa nut to washer surface before use. I was not aware of that recommendation. Can you give a
> reference?
>
> Hal Kading 78 Buskirk Las Cruces NM
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J.R. Wright
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GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan

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Re: OEM vs Alcoa lug nuts [message #265630 is a reply to message #265460]

Sat, 08 November 2014 08:43

winter

Messages: 247
Registered: September 2007
Location: MPLS MN

Karma: 0

Senior Member

RF_Burns wrote on Tue, 04 November 2014 21:05

I'm not an Engineer, but I find it interesting that it takes 8 big-ass bolts in an 8" diameter to hold a wheel on.... but that same wheel's axle is held to the bogey by 4 much smaller bolts set in about a 4" diameter.

Just saying..

The rim is probably the weak member so the bolt pattern and flange nuts are large to spread out the load. There is also probably some extra safety factor built in in case of loose or missing nuts. Because the general public would be taking the joint apart on a regular basis, GM would have to make it robust.

Jerrod Winter
1977 Palm Beach
Green Jelly Bean
Twin Cities, Minnesota

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