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| [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps [message #246119] |
Tue, 01 April 2014 21:40  |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
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I think Rob M brought up that Dick Paterson uses the high volume oil pump. I respect Dick's thoughts, and ideas. So today I called him on his ideas on that topic. We had a VERY informative talk. We're going to talk tomorrow some more on that topic. Short version for now on his thoughts. He likes the idea of the extra oil as a way of cooling the bottoms of the pistons. That would help to remove heat by the way of the oil spray. Oil spray does remove heat. Today I did more listening. He's a library of GM info. Next I want to explain my theory. Bob Dunahugh GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps [message #246120 is a reply to message #246119] |
Tue, 01 April 2014 22:18  |
Jeff Marten
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Registered: August 2013
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Where does the oil spray originate? Are you inferring filling the pan with an excess volume of oil, and thereby using the crank to splash oil around??? (terrible idea if so) Or installing spray nozzles so the extra volume of oil pumped is utilized?
A high volume oil pump does nothing but bypass more oil than a standard pump if the bearing clearances aren't set to utilize the extra volume of oil. Clearances at X" will only flow X volume of oil, nothing more; the additional pump volume will just be bypassed.
> From: yenko108@hotmail.com
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 21:40:51 -0500
> Subject: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps
>
> I think Rob M brought up that Dick Paterson uses the high volume oil pump. I respect Dick's thoughts, and ideas. So today I called him on his ideas on that topic. We had a VERY informative talk. We're going to talk tomorrow some more on that topic. Short version for now on his thoughts. He likes the idea of the extra oil as a way of cooling the bottoms of the pistons. That would help to remove heat by the way of the oil spray. Oil spray does remove heat. Today I did more listening. He's a library of GM info. Next I want to explain my theory. Bob Dunahugh GMCMI member
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1985 Gulf Stream 34' Sun Stream
1964 Falcon 'Vert
1980 Bradley GTE
1999 Chevy Tahoe
2005 Saab 93 Aero
1987 Suzuki Intruder 1400
1978 Glastron/Carlson CV23
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps [message #246154 is a reply to message #246120] |
Wed, 02 April 2014 10:26 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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| Jeff Marten wrote on Tue, 01 April 2014 23:18 |
Where does the oil spray originate? Are you inferring filling the pan with an excess volume of oil, and thereby using the crank to splash oil around??? (terrible idea if so) Or installing spray nozzles so the extra volume of oil pumped is utilized?
A high volume oil pump does nothing but bypass more oil than a standard pump if the bearing clearances aren't set to utilize the extra volume of oil. Clearances at X" will only flow X volume of oil, nothing more; the additional pump volume will just be bypassed.
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Jeff,
I have a leg up on most people. This a direct result of being a refugee from engine test laboratories.
The lube oil to cool the piston crowns is thrown up there by the connecting rods as they come around. Actually, this is a little bit of a misrepresentation. What really happens is the lower end flings oil up ward, but it will never reach the piston at top dead center, but that is OK because the piston will come right down to get it. It really is kind of fun to watch at 1800fps.
If you look at the article Rob referenced, it shows a rod drilled for a "piston cooler", but what is also interesting is that they used a rod with oil grooves. That is the job those two grooves each side of the rob beam are supposed to do. Sometimes rods even have notches in the bearing shell to line up with said grooves. The oil hole as pictured will do more to lubricate the trust face of the cylinder wall.
Dick Paterson very much understands the higher volume would be little value on a standard clearance engine, so he uses the high volume pump, but then also sets the engine up "looser" than minimum clearance to take advantage of the extra cooling that is then possible.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps [message #246156 is a reply to message #246154] |
Wed, 02 April 2014 11:03 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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Bypass circuits integral with oil pumps do not function at all until system
pressure is the same as or greater than the relief spring. If an engine is
tightly setup that pressure is likely to be achieved more quickly. I am not
talking about cold run conditions here, only fully warmed up.
If rods are drilled with squirt holes or side notched for oil to
escape it allows for more VOLUME to flow before achieving enough pressure
to open the bypass. Net effect here is more splash to the area of the
engine BELOW the piston rings.
If the amount of oil escaping exceeds original oil pump volume, then
logic tells us that a high volume pump has some benefit in oil cooling
cylinder bores and piston bottoms.
Basic tenets apply here and all factors considered, if a given system
has the capability to carry away heat at a faster rate than it is produced
by the engine, it should contribute to longevity of the engine. But you
have to strike a balance. Too cold is just as bad as too hot. "NORMAL
TEMPERATURE RANGE" means one thing in a Nitro methane burning Hemi, quite
another in a grocery getter, and still something else in a low compression
slow speed high piston loaded application like a GMC.
I have great respect for Dick Paterson. He truly understands what it
takes to keep one of these things from self destructing. Remember, it is
not just bolting on a different oilpump, but other tricks in combination
with it that works in concert. Engine builders don't always reveal all
their trick stuff. (grin)
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or.
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Apr 2, 2014 8:26 AM, "Matt Colie" <matt7323tze@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Jeff Marten wrote on Tue, 01 April 2014 23:18
> > Where does the oil spray originate? Are you inferring filling the pan
> with an excess volume of oil, and thereby using the crank to splash oil
> around??? (terrible idea if so) Or installing spray nozzles so the extra
> volume of oil pumped is utilized?
> > A high volume oil pump does nothing but bypass more oil than a standard
> pump if the bearing clearances aren't set to utilize the extra volume of
> oil. Clearances at X" will only flow X volume of oil, nothing more; the
> additional pump volume will just be bypassed.
>
> Jeff,
>
> I have a leg up on most people. This a direct result of being a refugee
> from engine test laboratories.
>
> The lube oil to cool the piston crowns is thrown up there by the
> connecting rods as they come around. Actually, this is a little bit of a
> misrepresentation. What really happens is the lower end flings oil up
> ward, but it will never reach the piston at top dead center, but that is OK
> because the piston will come right down to get it. It really is kind of
> fun to watch at 1800fps.
>
> If you look at the article Rob referenced, it shows a rod drilled for a
> "piston cooler", but what is also interesting is that they used a rod with
> oil grooves. That is the job those two grooves each side of the rob beam
> are supposed to do. Sometimes rods even have notches in the bearing shell
> to line up with said grooves. The oil hole as pictured will do more to
> lubricate the trust face of the cylinder wall.
>
> Dick Paterson very much understands the higher volume would be little
> value on a standard clearance engine, so he uses the high volume pump, but
> then also sets the engine up "looser" than minimum clearance to take
> advantage of the extra cooling that is then possible.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES home from MontgomeryPlanning
> Chaumière's next excursion
> '73 Glacier 23 With 4 Rear Brakes that pull as they should
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps [message #246189 is a reply to message #246154] |
Wed, 02 April 2014 15:20 |
mikethebike
Messages: 331
Registered: January 2014
Karma: 0
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My BOSS-302's with beefed up HI-Po 289 rods, my BOSS-302 with 5.4" T/A rods, my 427 Chevy and pretty much every engine I ever saw had oil squirters in the rods to send pressurized oil to the underside of the pistons
Ever hear of a windage tray?? That little item would stop your 'splash the oil all over the place' theory. Not to mention the foaming of the oil all that splashing would create.
What kind of engines were you working on?
But the old Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine used a splash lube system.
| Matt Colie wrote on Wed, 02 April 2014 10:26 |
| Jeff Marten wrote on Tue, 01 April 2014 23:18 |
Where does the oil spray originate? Are you inferring filling the pan with an excess volume of oil, and thereby using the crank to splash oil around??? (terrible idea if so) Or installing spray nozzles so the extra volume of oil pumped is utilized?
A high volume oil pump does nothing but bypass more oil than a standard pump if the bearing clearances aren't set to utilize the extra volume of oil. Clearances at X" will only flow X volume of oil, nothing more; the additional pump volume will just be bypassed.
|
Jeff,
I have a leg up on most people. This a direct result of being a refugee from engine test laboratories.
The lube oil to cool the piston crowns is thrown up there by the connecting rods as they come around. Actually, this is a little bit of a misrepresentation. What really happens is the lower end flings oil up ward, but it will never reach the piston at top dead center, but that is OK because the piston will come right down to get it. It really is kind of fun to watch at 1800fps.
If you look at the article Rob referenced, it shows a rod drilled for a "piston cooler", but what is also interesting is that they used a rod with oil grooves. That is the job those two grooves each side of the rob beam are supposed to do. Sometimes rods even have notches in the bearing shell to line up with said grooves. The oil hole as pictured will do more to lubricate the trust face of the cylinder wall.
Dick Paterson very much understands the higher volume would be little value on a standard clearance engine, so he uses the high volume pump, but then also sets the engine up "looser" than minimum clearance to take advantage of the extra cooling that is then possible.
Matt
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| Re: [GMCnet] High Volume Oil Pumps [message #246319 is a reply to message #246274] |
Thu, 03 April 2014 19:56 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Seems to me there's one important consideration that hasn't been much
addressed in this high volume oil pump discussion: With our gear pumps,
the volume passed is directly related to the engine speed. I suspect Dick
Paterson's affinity for the high volume pump is at least partially based on
the low speeds at which we operate our engines.
JMHO,
Ken H.
On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:50 AM, Bob Dunahugh wrote:
> Thanks Jeff for bringing that up on newer engines. Now that you mentioned
> that. A few years ago I saw a 8 year old engine being disassembled. I did
> see the tray there. Just didn't think of it as a windage tray. As far as
> Rob, and the scraper. Showing my age on that one. There is no doubt that
> oil spray is important in the lubrication of any engine. And the modern
> engine manufacturers are concerned about too much of a good thing. For me,
> I've always tried to keep oil spray down to the minimums that engine
> manufacturers thought was required. I've had no engine failures from the
> lack of oil spray. Or my not using high volume oil pumps. Like I said
> before. Is there a pure right, or wrong. NO. Do what seems right to you.Bob
> Dunahugh
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Ken Henderson
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] High Volume Oil Pumps [message #246321 is a reply to message #246319] |
Thu, 03 April 2014 20:14 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
Here's what I published on March 18th.
G'day,
I am posting the following for information purposes only; I am not suggesting, recommending, commending, or anythinging the Melling
high flow pump P/N M-22-FHV.
I wanted to find out how much oil it flowed so I called Melling Technical Support and was advised that at idle (700-800 rpm) the
pump would deliver 3.25 GPM with the bypass set at 58 psi. The bypass could be set higher at 65 psi. The tech rep noted at 5000 rpm
their pump would deliver around 7 GPM and the OEM pump around 3.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Seems to me there's one important consideration that hasn't been much
addressed in this high volume oil pump discussion: With our gear pumps,
the volume passed is directly related to the engine speed. I suspect Dick
Paterson's affinity for the high volume pump is at least partially based on
the low speeds at which we operate our engines.
JMHO,
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps [message #246323 is a reply to message #246189] |
Thu, 03 April 2014 20:34 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""But the old Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine used a splash lube system.""
So did many car engines including the straight six 216.5 Chevy engines for years.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps [message #246357 is a reply to message #246348] |
Fri, 04 April 2014 07:35 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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OK, now it's somebody else's turn to rattle Bob's chain just a tad -- We
always get such great information when we wake him up!
Ken H.
On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 2:25 AM, Bob Dunahugh <yenko108@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The main, and rod bearings will pass the same amount of oil at 700 RPM as
> at 3000 RPM. As the bearing clearance remain constant as long as the oil
> pressure remains the same. The output of the oil pump goes up as the RPM's
> increases. At idle. The relief valve is generally closed. ( Except at start
> up with a cold engine. ) This can be observed on the oil pressure gauge.
> You can also observe when the relief valve opens as the RPMs increase..
> The oil pressure gauge will also increase. There will be a point that the
> gauge will stop climbing. Even though the RPMs continue to increase. That
> is the point that the relief valve starts to send the excess oil back to
> the pan. With the OEM pump in place. And if you pay attention to what your
> dash gauge is doing. You can get indications of the condition of your
> bearings, and pump. If you have a high volume pump. The relief valve is
> bypassing oil most of the time.This will decrease the movement of the
> dash guage. Some guys get upset bec
> ause of the gauge moves to much. When it moves. It's telling you a store
> on the health of your engine. A static gauge due to a high volume pump is
> saying nothing . And can mask issues that are building up internally.
> Personally. I like it that my dash gauge is communicating to me. As rorthe splash oiling systems. Yes. Way back in time. A splash system worked in
> car, and truck engines. But that wasn't the kind of splash that we have
> been discussing. There was more to that system then oil just flying
> around the crank case. And that oiling system worked well until
> compression ratios got above 5.2 to 1. As for the Briggs. Low compression
> with very little weight in the reciprocating mass. That's what made that
> work. Anyway. That's my input.Bob Dunahugh
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps [message #246392 is a reply to message #246357] |
Fri, 04 April 2014 15:39 |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
Karma: -2
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Not to question Dick's abilities as a quality engine builder, but I wonder if one of his reasons for using the HV pump is to keep the oil press gauge stable? Most of his motorhome engine customers are likely less knowledgeable on engine internals and might be concerned if they saw fluctuating hot oil pressure at idle on a fresh engine. The HV pump certainly won't hurt our low revving engines and is a convenient way to keep the hot idle oil pressure up.
Since Dick has no control over oil quality, coach operating conditions, or the accuracy and type of pressure gauge used, hot oil pressure at idle could be all over the map. Using a HV pump would help reduce the variations one might see.
I agree with Bob on the idle oil pressure telling us about the condition on our engine. That info is only good to those of us who understand what is actually going on. To the rest of us it might raise false red flags.
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
On Apr 4, 2014, at 8:35 AM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
OK, now it's somebody else's turn to rattle Bob's chain just a tad -- We
always get such great information when we wake him up!
Ken H.
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 2:25 AM, Bob Dunahugh <yenko108@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> The main, and rod bearings will pass the same amount of oil at 700 RPM as
> at 3000 RPM. As the bearing clearance remain constant as long as the oil
> pressure remains the same. The output of the oil pump goes up as the RPM's
> increases. At idle. The relief valve is generally closed. ( Except at start
> up with a cold engine. ) This can be observed on the oil pressure gauge.
> You can also observe when the relief valve opens as the RPMs increase..
> The oil pressure gauge will also increase. There will be a point that the
> gauge will stop climbing. Even though the RPMs continue to increase. That
> is the point that the relief valve starts to send the excess oil back to
> the pan. With the OEM pump in place. And if you pay attention to what your
> dash gauge is doing. You can get indications of the condition of your
> bearings, and pump. If you have a high volume pump. The relief valve is
> bypassing oil most of the time.This will decrease the movement of the
> dash guage. Some guys get upset bec
> ause of the gauge moves to much. When it moves. It's telling you a store
> on the health of your engine. A static gauge due to a high volume pump is
> saying nothing . And can mask issues that are building up internally.
> Personally. I like it that my dash gauge is communicating to me. As rorthe splash oiling systems. Yes. Way back in time. A splash system worked in
> car, and truck engines. But that wasn't the kind of splash that we have
> been discussing. There was more to that system then oil just flying
> around the crank case. And that oiling system worked well until
> compression ratios got above 5.2 to 1. As for the Briggs. Low compression
> with very little weight in the reciprocating mass. That's what made that
> work. Anyway. That's my input.Bob Dunahugh
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps [message #246569 is a reply to message #246553] |
Sun, 06 April 2014 19:02 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| mikethebike wrote on Sun, 06 April 2014 13:59 |
Ok, name an major automobile manufacturer who had an engine built after 1960 that used a splash system in a production automobile, truck, van or motorhome.
| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Thu, 03 April 2014 20:34 |
""But the old Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine used a splash lube system.""
So did many car engines including the straight six 216.5 Chevy engines for years.
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You don't set the rules 
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] High volume oil pumps [message #246589 is a reply to message #246574] |
Sun, 06 April 2014 21:10 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| mikethebike wrote on Sun, 06 April 2014 18:59 |
I didn't. Guys like Smokey Yunick, Zora Duntov, Ed Cole and others did.
| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sun, 06 April 2014 19:02 |
| mikethebike wrote on Sun, 06 April 2014 13:59 |
Ok, name an major automobile manufacturer who had an engine built after 1960 that used a splash system in a production automobile, truck, van or motorhome.
| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Thu, 03 April 2014 20:34 |
""But the old Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine used a splash lube system.""
So did many car engines including the straight six 216.5 Chevy engines for years.
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You don't set the rules
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Now you're getting it !
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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