Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool
| [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool [message #218177] |
Tue, 13 August 2013 13:11  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
I took a gamble on what Ken had noted and ordered a case of Frosty Cool it arrived yesterday and I called the company, they verified
it IS the same thing as Dura Cool.
Emery,
If you think it's worth it I'll bring a few cans to Branson and we can do a comparison of Dura Cool and Frosty Cool to see if it
performs the same. IIRC the Frosty Cool was $4.95 a can which is cheaper than the Dura Cool.
Regards,
Rob M.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool [message #218253 is a reply to message #218208] |
Tue, 13 August 2013 22:46  |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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The propane that we burn in our ovens and furnaces is very impure with a lot of other things besides propane in it. The other things in it might have a very negative impact on your cooling system. The propane used in Duracool and such HC12a refrigerants is highly purified propane.
I would not consider trying to make my own, and I am a Chemical Engineer.
Emery Stora
On Aug 13, 2013, at 3:48 PM, A. wrote:
>
>
> The people that sell Duracool and Frostycool may or may not put other additives in their products, but the basic refrigerant in both is a mix of approximately 64% propane and 36% butane by mass.
>
> You can make your own with an "empty" propane tank (with only some propane vapor in it), some fittings, some propane, and a 450 gram can of Campingaz, which is 80% butane. Combine 19.4 oz of propane to one 450 gram can of Campingaz to make 35.26 oz of HC12.
> --
> '73 23' Sequoia For Camping
> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
> UA (Upper Alabama)
> "Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool [message #218256 is a reply to message #218253] |
Tue, 13 August 2013 23:09 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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my 12 cans of frostycool came in today, should i use it? is it ok and as good as duracool?
My dash air is a little weak but has a small amount of coolness to it, it has not been filled in maybe 6 years,
i would suppose it has leaked some out, Should i just give it a shot of frostycool and see what happens.
what psi on high and low sides should i shoot for. if i may ask for help to anyone, thank you Mickey anaheim ca. 77 palm beach.
Is there a way to also put this stuff in the roof air? best regards
On Aug 13, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
> The propane that we burn in our ovens and furnaces is very impure with a lot of other things besides propane in it. The other things in it might have a very negative impact on your cooling system. The propane used in Duracool and such HC12a refrigerants is highly purified propane.
>
> I would not consider trying to make my own, and I am a Chemical Engineer.
>
> Emery Stora
>
> On Aug 13, 2013, at 3:48 PM, A. wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The people that sell Duracool and Frostycool may or may not put other additives in their products, but the basic refrigerant in both is a mix of approximately 64% propane and 36% butane by mass.
>>
>> You can make your own with an "empty" propane tank (with only some propane vapor in it), some fittings, some propane, and a 450 gram can of Campingaz, which is 80% butane. Combine 19.4 oz of propane to one 450 gram can of Campingaz to make 35.26 oz of HC12.
>> --
>> '73 23' Sequoia For Camping
>> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
>> UA (Upper Alabama)
>> "Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool [message #218258 is a reply to message #218256] |
Tue, 13 August 2013 23:21 |
Emery Stora
Messages: 959
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Unless you purge out all of the existing refrigerant and refill you cannot go by pressures.
If you put in a "shot" of Frosty then you would have a mixture so pressures don't have any interpretable meaning.
However if you are indeed just low on refrigerant ant giving it a shot to see if you now have cooling might work. The question becomes how many shots do you need ?
Emery Stora
On Aug 13, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Mickey Space Ship Shuttle <mickeysss@me.com> wrote:
> my 12 cans of frostycool came in today, should i use it? is it ok and as good as duracool?
>
> My dash air is a little weak but has a small amount of coolness to it, it has not been filled in maybe 6 years,
>
> i would suppose it has leaked some out, Should i just give it a shot of frostycool and see what happens.
>
> what psi on high and low sides should i shoot for. if i may ask for help to anyone, thank you Mickey anaheim ca. 77 palm beach.
>
> Is there a way to also put this stuff in the roof air? best regards
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 13, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
>
>> The propane that we burn in our ovens and furnaces is very impure with a lot of other things besides propane in it. The other things in it might have a very negative impact on your cooling system. The propane used in Duracool and such HC12a refrigerants is highly purified propane.
>>
>> I would not consider trying to make my own, and I am a Chemical Engineer.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>>
>> On Aug 13, 2013, at 3:48 PM, A. wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The people that sell Duracool and Frostycool may or may not put other additives in their products, but the basic refrigerant in both is a mix of approximately 64% propane and 36% butane by mass.
>>>
>>> You can make your own with an "empty" propane tank (with only some propane vapor in it), some fittings, some propane, and a 450 gram can of Campingaz, which is 80% butane. Combine 19.4 oz of propane to one 450 gram can of Campingaz to make 35.26 oz of HC12.
>>> --
>>> '73 23' Sequoia For Camping
>>> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
>>> UA (Upper Alabama)
>>> "Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool [message #218259 is a reply to message #218256] |
Tue, 13 August 2013 23:23 |
Emery Stora
Messages: 959
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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NO. Don't put it in the roof air. It is the wrong refrigerant. Your roof air is in a welded, sealed chamber so the refrigerant shouldn't leak out. There are no seals or hoses to leak as your dash air has.
Emery Stora
On Aug 13, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Mickey Space Ship Shuttle <mickeysss@me.com> wrote:
> my 12 cans of frostycool came in today, should i use it? is it ok and as good as duracool?
>
> My dash air is a little weak but has a small amount of coolness to it, it has not been filled in maybe 6 years,
>
> i would suppose it has leaked some out, Should i just give it a shot of frostycool and see what happens.
>
> what psi on high and low sides should i shoot for. if i may ask for help to anyone, thank you Mickey anaheim ca. 77 palm beach.
>
> Is there a way to also put this stuff in the roof air? best regards
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 13, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
>
>> The propane that we burn in our ovens and furnaces is very impure with a lot of other things besides propane in it. The other things in it might have a very negative impact on your cooling system. The propane used in Duracool and such HC12a refrigerants is highly purified propane.
>>
>> I would not consider trying to make my own, and I am a Chemical Engineer.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>>
>> On Aug 13, 2013, at 3:48 PM, A. wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The people that sell Duracool and Frostycool may or may not put other additives in their products, but the basic refrigerant in both is a mix of approximately 64% propane and 36% butane by mass.
>>>
>>> You can make your own with an "empty" propane tank (with only some propane vapor in it), some fittings, some propane, and a 450 gram can of Campingaz, which is 80% butane. Combine 19.4 oz of propane to one 450 gram can of Campingaz to make 35.26 oz of HC12.
>>> --
>>> '73 23' Sequoia For Camping
>>> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
>>> UA (Upper Alabama)
>>> "Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool [message #218262 is a reply to message #218259] |
Wed, 14 August 2013 01:10 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Yet to give a full report, but I used the Duracool R-22 replacement along with some snake oil (that really works!) called Duraseal and Duradry in my roof air. Oh. I bought a tap valve too to gain access to the system.
After a false start and some gyrations I vacuumed the system and then shot the juice to about 70# low side. So far it seems to cool, though it takes a moment. I haven't really tested it yet…
Oh, the question didn't really pertain to this?
Larry Davick
On Aug 13, 2013, at 9:23 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@me.com> wrote:
> NO. Don't put it in the roof air. It is the wrong refrigerant. Your roof air is in a welded, sealed chamber so the refrigerant shouldn't leak out. There are no seals or hoses to leak as your dash air has.
>
> Emery Stora
>
> On Aug 13, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Mickey Space Ship Shuttle <mickeysss@me.com> wrote:
>
>> my 12 cans of frostycool came in today, should i use it? is it ok and as good as duracool?
>>
>> My dash air is a little weak but has a small amount of coolness to it, it has not been filled in maybe 6 years,
>>
>> i would suppose it has leaked some out, Should i just give it a shot of frostycool and see what happens.
>>
>> what psi on high and low sides should i shoot for. if i may ask for help to anyone, thank you Mickey anaheim ca. 77 palm beach.
>>
>> Is there a way to also put this stuff in the roof air? best regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 13, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
>>
>>> The propane that we burn in our ovens and furnaces is very impure with a lot of other things besides propane in it. The other things in it might have a very negative impact on your cooling system. The propane used in Duracool and such HC12a refrigerants is highly purified propane.
>>>
>>> I would not consider trying to make my own, and I am a Chemical Engineer.
>>>
>>> Emery Stora
>>>
>>> On Aug 13, 2013, at 3:48 PM, A. wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The people that sell Duracool and Frostycool may or may not put other additives in their products, but the basic refrigerant in both is a mix of approximately 64% propane and 36% butane by mass.
>>>>
>>>> You can make your own with an "empty" propane tank (with only some propane vapor in it), some fittings, some propane, and a 450 gram can of Campingaz, which is 80% butane. Combine 19.4 oz of propane to one 450 gram can of Campingaz to make 35.26 oz of HC12.
>>>> --
>>>> '73 23' Sequoia For Camping
>>>> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
>>>> UA (Upper Alabama)
>>>> "Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool [message #218263 is a reply to message #218258] |
Wed, 14 August 2013 01:15 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Emery - back to the old myth that if the proof of the pudding is in the tasting - couldn't we simply gauge this by outlet temperature? If the pudding is cold…
Larry Davick
On Aug 13, 2013, at 9:21 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@me.com> wrote:
> Unless you purge out all of the existing refrigerant and refill you cannot go by pressures.
>
> If you put in a "shot" of Frosty then you would have a mixture so pressures don't have any interpretable meaning.
>
> However if you are indeed just low on refrigerant ant giving it a shot to see if you now have cooling might work. The question becomes how many shots do you need ?
>
> Emery Stora
>
> On Aug 13, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Mickey Space Ship Shuttle <mickeysss@me.com> wrote:
>
>> my 12 cans of frostycool came in today, should i use it? is it ok and as good as duracool?
>>
>> My dash air is a little weak but has a small amount of coolness to it, it has not been filled in maybe 6 years,
>>
>> i would suppose it has leaked some out, Should i just give it a shot of frostycool and see what happens.
>>
>> what psi on high and low sides should i shoot for. if i may ask for help to anyone, thank you Mickey anaheim ca. 77 palm beach.
>>
>> Is there a way to also put this stuff in the roof air? best regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 13, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
>>
>>> The propane that we burn in our ovens and furnaces is very impure with a lot of other things besides propane in it. The other things in it might have a very negative impact on your cooling system. The propane used in Duracool and such HC12a refrigerants is highly purified propane.
>>>
>>> I would not consider trying to make my own, and I am a Chemical Engineer.
>>>
>>> Emery Stora
>>>
>>> On Aug 13, 2013, at 3:48 PM, A. wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The people that sell Duracool and Frostycool may or may not put other additives in their products, but the basic refrigerant in both is a mix of approximately 64% propane and 36% butane by mass.
>>>>
>>>> You can make your own with an "empty" propane tank (with only some propane vapor in it), some fittings, some propane, and a 450 gram can of Campingaz, which is 80% butane. Combine 19.4 oz of propane to one 450 gram can of Campingaz to make 35.26 oz of HC12.
>>>> --
>>>> '73 23' Sequoia For Camping
>>>> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
>>>> UA (Upper Alabama)
>>>> "Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool [message #218270 is a reply to message #218263] |
Wed, 14 August 2013 07:32 |
Emery Stora
Messages: 959
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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I thought that is essentially what I said when I said "giving it a shot to see if you now have cooling".
Emery Stora
On Aug 14, 2013, at 12:15 AM, Larry Davick <ljdavick@comcast.net> wrote:
> Emery - back to the old myth that if the proof of the pudding is in the tasting - couldn't we simply gauge this by outlet temperature? If the pudding is cold…
>
> Larry Davick
>
> On Aug 13, 2013, at 9:21 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@me.com> wrote:
>
>> Unless you purge out all of the existing refrigerant and refill you cannot go by pressures.
>>
>> If you put in a "shot" of Frosty then you would have a mixture so pressures don't have any interpretable meaning.
>>
>> However if you are indeed just low on refrigerant ant giving it a shot to see if you now have cooling might work. The question becomes how many shots do you need ?
>>
>> Emery Stora
>>
>> On Aug 13, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Mickey Space Ship Shuttle <mickeysss@me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> my 12 cans of frostycool came in today, should i use it? is it ok and as good as duracool?
>>>
>>> My dash air is a little weak but has a small amount of coolness to it, it has not been filled in maybe 6 years,
>>>
>>> i would suppose it has leaked some out, Should i just give it a shot of frostycool and see what happens.
>>>
>>> what psi on high and low sides should i shoot for. if i may ask for help to anyone, thank you Mickey anaheim ca. 77 palm beach.
>>>
>>> Is there a way to also put this stuff in the roof air? best regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 13, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
>>>
>>>> The propane that we burn in our ovens and furnaces is very impure with a lot of other things besides propane in it. The other things in it might have a very negative impact on your cooling system. The propane used in Duracool and such HC12a refrigerants is highly purified propane.
>>>>
>>>> I would not consider trying to make my own, and I am a Chemical Engineer.
>>>>
>>>> Emery Stora
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 13, 2013, at 3:48 PM, A. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The people that sell Duracool and Frostycool may or may not put other additives in their products, but the basic refrigerant in both is a mix of approximately 64% propane and 36% butane by mass.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can make your own with an "empty" propane tank (with only some propane vapor in it), some fittings, some propane, and a 450 gram can of Campingaz, which is 80% butane. Combine 19.4 oz of propane to one 450 gram can of Campingaz to make 35.26 oz of HC12.
>>>>> --
>>>>> '73 23' Sequoia For Camping
>>>>> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
>>>>> UA (Upper Alabama)
>>>>> "Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool [message #218535 is a reply to message #218392] |
Fri, 16 August 2013 02:40 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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My Frostycool came in, what is the high and low psi for this? Is it the same as duracool in any way?
thank you mickey anaheim ca. 77 palm beach.
On Aug 14, 2013, at 9:01 PM, A. wrote:
>
>
> Mr ERFisher wrote on Tue, 13 August 2013 23:35
>> Quote:
>>> You can make your own with an "empty" propane tank (with only some propane vapor in it), some fittings, some propane, and a 450 gram can of Campingaz, which is 80% butane. Combine 19.4 oz of propane to one 450 gram can of Campingaz to make 35.26 oz of HC12.
>> that would be interesting
>>
>> gene'
>> --
>> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
>> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
>> -------
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
>> Alternator Protection Cable
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> It was not an original idea. Mark A. did it years ago
>
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/heat.html#duracool
>
> I developed my recipe from the proportions here:
>
> http://www.hychill.com.au/pdf/hcramcac.pdf
> --
> '73 23' Sequoia For Camping
> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
> UA (Upper Alabama)
> "Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool [message #218555 is a reply to message #218535] |
Fri, 16 August 2013 08:10 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Mickey,
AFAIK no one here as ever used this product before so the answer is DUNNO!
When I called Frosty Cool the tech service guy told me it was the same as Dura Cool or HyChill (Aussie product) therefore an empty
system should require three cans just like Dura Cool.
Having said that I bought a case also and will be taking three cans to Branson where Emery (cause he knows what he's doing) and I
will recharge a coach and see how it works / what the temps / pressures it produces.
So you can do it now on your own or wait and see what Emery and I find out.
Be careful filling it on your own without knowing what you're doing, while unlikely you could F' up something.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mickey Space Ship Shuttle
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 2:40 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool
My Frostycool came in, what is the high and low psi for this? Is it the same as duracool in any way?
thank you mickey anaheim ca. 77 palm beach.
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool [message #218580 is a reply to message #218555] |
Fri, 16 August 2013 10:15 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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roger that.
m. ca. 77pb.
On Aug 16, 2013, at 6:10 AM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Mickey,
>
> AFAIK no one here as ever used this product before so the answer is DUNNO!
>
> When I called Frosty Cool the tech service guy told me it was the same as Dura Cool or HyChill (Aussie product) therefore an empty
> system should require three cans just like Dura Cool.
>
> Having said that I bought a case also and will be taking three cans to Branson where Emery (cause he knows what he's doing) and I
> will recharge a coach and see how it works / what the temps / pressures it produces.
>
> So you can do it now on your own or wait and see what Emery and I find out.
>
> Be careful filling it on your own without knowing what you're doing, while unlikely you could F' up something.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mickey Space Ship Shuttle
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 2:40 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Frosty Cool / Dura Cool
>
>
> My Frostycool came in, what is the high and low psi for this? Is it the same as duracool in any way?
>
> thank you mickey anaheim ca. 77 palm beach.
>
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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