Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » And now for a little side ways
| Re: And now for a little side ways [message #318889 is a reply to message #318887] |
Mon, 12 June 2017 11:59   |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Ran 2011-2013 v-6 RAM vans. We had 8 of them and Inwould not wish the engine/drive train on my worst enemy. We
Still have 5 of the 8. And 2 of those 5 we do not use any more and should be auctioned off this fall. NONE have more then 200k miles on them, and most have experienced a tranny. Quite a few repairs I asked how service writer was able to look a mother of 4/5 kids in the face when he told them how much the repairs cost. The engine and base tranny maybe ok, as they cover that on warantee and everything that goes wrong are non-warented
Items.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: And now for a little side ways [message #318890 is a reply to message #318887] |
Mon, 12 June 2017 11:59 |
Handyman
Messages: 229
Registered: April 2016
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 2
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Oké, that bigger 6 cyl engine is not available in europe, but that could do a better job.
I think that will be a chrysler engine in origine? Or did they order a 6 cyl turbo diesel from IVECO who has also very nice engines and even nicer full automated 7 speed transmissions. Their engines are also stronger then those from FIAT ...
Daniel
Daniel Jacobs, NL-USA 1977 GMC Eleganza II, Rebuild 455 (2019) 3.55 FD. FiTech and (Modified) FCC, Electric Pump, insulated GasTanks, 100A Alternator, APC, McDash, Schräder Valves + extern Fills, Ceramic Film, TPMS, FlexSteel Seats
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| Re: And now for a little side ways [message #318998 is a reply to message #318629] |
Wed, 14 June 2017 12:37 |
TR 1
Messages: 348
Registered: August 2015
Location: DFW
Karma: -7
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Not sure I'd want a transverse engine on anything doing heavy duty pulling...
Just throwing this out there, but the only other heavy duty, longitudinal drivetrain, front drive application I know of is some E-450 transit vans were converted to FWD. They use them here at the State Fair of Texas as parking lot shuttles. The FWD lets them lower the van floor for ease of entry. Some quick internet searching reveals they were common on transit busses in Canada as well. The Canadian ones are running old Navistar 7.3s and have some sort of a Carraro H.S. drivetrain running forward to what looks like a heavy duty Dana front axle. Not sure if the State fair busses also run the Carraro, but I can confirm by the sound they are definitely running 7.3s...
So as someone else here mentioned... Use a GM 1 Ton front end instead of the dana used on these fords powered by a driveshaft off of this Carraro unit... Either use an adapter or maybe Carrero has a GM Bellhousing pattern available.
Hal had also mentioned using a NP205 converted for FWD operation as another drivetrain option to get power from a longitudinal mount engine to the front wheels... Nice thing about that setup is NP205s are everywhere...
http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f14/odd-e450-bus-set-up-310304/
Here's one that was up for auction just a few days ago. Went for 1800 Canadian... If the 7.3 runs well, you should easily be able to get 1800 just for the engine. You'd end up with a nearly free drivetrain...
https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=3&acctid=5511
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
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| Re: And now for a little side ways [message #319000 is a reply to message #318998] |
Wed, 14 June 2017 12:55 |
TR 1
Messages: 348
Registered: August 2015
Location: DFW
Karma: -7
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Senior Member |
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TR 1 wrote on Wed, 14 June 2017 12:37Not sure I'd want a transverse engine on anything doing heavy duty pulling...
Just throwing this out there, but the only other heavy duty, longitudinal drivetrain, front drive application I know of is some E-450 transit vans were converted to FWD. They use them here at the State Fair of Texas as parking lot shuttles. The FWD lets them lower the van floor for ease of entry. Some quick internet searching reveals they were common on transit busses in Canada as well. The Canadian ones are running old Navistar 7.3s and have some sort of a Carraro H.S. drivetrain running forward to what looks like a heavy duty Dana front axle. Not sure if the State fair busses also run the Carraro, but I can confirm by the sound they are definitely running 7.3s...
So as someone else here mentioned... Use a GM 1 Ton front end instead of the dana used on these fords powered by a driveshaft off of this Carraro unit... Either use an adapter or maybe Carrero has a GM Bellhousing pattern available.
Hal had also mentioned using a NP205 converted for FWD operation as another drivetrain option to get power from a longitudinal mount engine to the front wheels... Nice thing about that setup is NP205s are everywhere...
http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f14/odd-e450-bus-set-up-310304/
Here's one that was up for auction just a few days ago. Went for 1800 Canadian... If the 7.3 runs well, you should easily be able to get 1800 just for the engine. You'd end up with a nearly free drivetrain...
https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=3&acctid=5511
Doing some more research, it looks like Carraro just makes the front axle. These busses are running a 4R100, same as any other heavy duty ford from that time... Would imagine then that they are running an NP205 as Hal suggested as well...
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
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| Re: And now for a little side ways [message #319014 is a reply to message #318629] |
Wed, 14 June 2017 16:48 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Mark, other than the lack of traction - which we have now - what's the argument against a transverse front drive train?
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: And now for a little side ways [message #319018 is a reply to message #319014] |
Wed, 14 June 2017 17:48 |
TR 1
Messages: 348
Registered: August 2015
Location: DFW
Karma: -7
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Senior Member |
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I guess my main issue is there really aren't any "truly" heavy duty transverse engine transaxles out there... While the 4T80 may be an option, you're really asking it to do way more than it was ever designed to do pulling a GMC and possibly a towd around. I worked for Manheim Auto Auctions back in the 90s, and we had more than a few Caddys and Auroras with tranny issues come through... From what I remember, the casing just wasn't beefy enough to support the torque.
Really, by a large margin, the strongest front drive transaxle out there, is the one we already have... At least as far as I am aware. But then, compare even the TH425 to an Allison, or Ford 6R110, and I'm not a dodge guy, but whatever they use in the HD rams, and there is no contest. 1000 lbft of torque is no problem with those gearboxes. Not sure if a TH425 could be reasonably built to take that kind of torque, but I would bet it would not be easy...
To go with a gearbox weaker than we have already, does not seem like an upgrade to me. Even with the added overdrive.
Just my opinion...
Now, whatever they run in those front drive Texas State Fair vans, I'd have no problem putting in anything I own that hauls a load... I tried to find some pictures online but couldn't. Not only do they have the low floor bus chassis full of people, but they pull like a small train of 3 or so trailers with people on them as well. 105 degree heat, all day long.
Here are some more shots of that Canadian Overland shuttle bus. The Texas vans really look similar. They're running 10 bolt axles on them:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/r-flores/sets/72157628119573157/
-If- I ever go through the effort of a drivetrain swap on my GMC, there is no way I'm going through all that work and $$ to put in something that's not at least as tough as what I have in there already...
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
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| Re: And now for a little side ways [message #319039 is a reply to message #318814] |
Wed, 14 June 2017 22:02 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
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Senior Member |
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Mike S wrote on Sat, 10 June 2017 09:30There seems to be some question about the strength of the 4T80e.
Keep in mind the progression at GM.
the 400/425 torque capacity morphed into the 4l80E/ 4T80E.
The L (longitudal) 4L80e was the trans of choice in the big block trucks. And had a reasonable decent reputation.
It was only the increase torque of the Duramax and 8.1 that a new, more robust trans was needed. The Allison.
The internals of the 4t80E match the 4l80E. The same as the internals of the 400 match the 425.
And yes. The chain is a limiter.
The real enemy is HEAT under sustain max load. Synthetics and a temp gauge go a long way to battling that enemy!
Actually, the 4t80e is 'morphed' from the TH125 trans first used in the X bodies, I believe. A little light for our use I'd guess.
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: And now for a little side ways [message #319042 is a reply to message #318629] |
Thu, 15 June 2017 05:11 |
Mike S
Messages: 82
Registered: February 2017
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Karma: 3
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Mark
The real trouble isn't the motor to the trans, it's the diff interferes with the pan rail by 1/2".
One guy milled the panrail down and ground a hole in the diff and JB welded back shut.
I have the LS in place with the diff by clocking the trans 22 degrees. But it won't clear the step or hatch.
What your are looking at can be done, look at Hal's,
The goal of this is "bolt-in" under the hatch. So anyone could do it.
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