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Starter Problems [message #351875]

Mon, 03 February 2020 13:09

MikeB

Messages: 133
Registered: December 2018
Location: South Bama

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Hey Folks
The starter I have is a few years old and is one of those after market high torque mini versions. It started grinding a little more every start until it now grinds constantly. I removed it expecting the worse but found only slight wear on ring gear. After doing measurements I found the bending was only inserting 1/8" into RG. Turns out a lot of these on the market say there for Toronado 455 but are actually for BB Chevy and only thrust 1/8 into RG. It works for a while then in a short while start grinding.

So with a bored out motor with performance changes what starter do y'all recommend. I'm looking for top quality and good torque.

Thanks

M Beam 75’ Avion TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff Zuki Sidekick, Dozier Al

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351878 is a reply to message #351875]

Mon, 03 February 2020 14:54

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Mike,

Did you even try cranking with a good 10MT and solid main engine battery?

I recently redid my engine to an 8.5/461 with a CompCam DDE 207 and the Rebuilt (by me) 10MT cranks it smartly.

As a many decades engine guy, I don't think it will even have trouble until you get close to 10.0.

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351880 is a reply to message #351878]

Mon, 03 February 2020 16:44

MikeB

Messages: 133
Registered: December 2018
Location: South Bama

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Matt Colie wrote on Mon, 03 February 2020 14:54

Mike,

Did you even try cranking with a good 10MT and solid main engine battery?

Nope. Haven't tried anything thats why I'm asking for opinions. Thank you for yours.

M Beam 75’ Avion TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff Zuki Sidekick, Dozier Al

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351881 is a reply to message #351875]

Mon, 03 February 2020 16:50

Larry

Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI

Karma: 10

Senior Member

10MT. ??

Larry

Smile

78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351883 is a reply to message #351875]

Mon, 03 February 2020 17:45

ljdavick

Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA

Karma: -3

Senior Member

Doesn't Gene have a tip on his site for connecting the battery directly to the starter and not through the whatchamacallit?

If I remember correctly this removes a nice bit of resistance to the starter.

Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351884 is a reply to message #351881]

Mon, 03 February 2020 17:45

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Larry wrote on Mon, 03 February 2020 17:50

10MT. ??

Larry,

10MT is the model of the Delco starter that is used on out coaches and most GM vehicles from 1956 (the first 12V) until the mid 90's. It is a great example of what bean counters call "Too Robust". They almost never failed under warranty, in fact they seldom fail and when one finally stops cranking an engine it is in real big trouble.

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351885 is a reply to message #351883]

Mon, 03 February 2020 17:48

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

ljdavick wrote on Mon, 03 February 2020 18:45

Doesn't Gene have a tip on his site for connecting the battery directly to the starter and not through the whatchamacallit?

If I remember correctly this removes a nice bit of resistance to the starter.

Yes, someone does advise running the main engine battery cable straight to the solenoid terminal and then another cable back to the boost contactor. Yes, it will remove a little resistance, but if the system has been properly maintained, it should not matter.

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351889 is a reply to message #351884]

Mon, 03 February 2020 18:33

Larry

Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI

Karma: 10

Senior Member

Matt Colie wrote on Mon, 03 February 2020 17:45

Larry wrote on Mon, 03 February 2020 17:50
10MT. ??
Larry,

10MT is the model of the Delco starter that is used on out coaches and most GM vehicles from 1956 (the first 12V) until the mid 90's. It is a great example of what bean counters call "Too Robust". They almost never failed under warranty, in fact they seldom fail and when one finally stops cranking an engine it is in real big trouble.

Matt

AHHH...Thanks Matt.

Larry

Smile

78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351890 is a reply to message #351875]

Mon, 03 February 2020 18:41

JohnL455

Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL

Karma: 12

Senior Member

The gear reduction starers were a CAFE weight savings thing for starter and battery weight reduction. I see this in other GM car clubs where they think these are great. Maybe great in the vehicles they came in from the factory. But in an 11K lb vehicle mean nothing. There is nothing wrong with 10MT. My 77 has no wiring updates original side terminal cables and cranks supper fast. I suggest rebuilding your old unit.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351891 is a reply to message #351890]

Mon, 03 February 2020 18:52

MikeB

Messages: 133
Registered: December 2018
Location: South Bama

Karma: 1

Senior Member

JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 03 February 2020 18:41

The gear reduction starers were a CAFE weight savings thing for starter and battery weight reduction. I see this in other GM car clubs where they think these are great. Maybe great in the vehicles they came in from the factory. But in an 11K lb vehicle mean nothing. There is nothing wrong with 10MT. My 77 has no wiring updates original side terminal cables and cranks supper fast. I suggest rebuilding your old unit.

I don't have the old unit, the mini unit was already on the MH. Does Delco even make the early 10MT anymore? If not than really what I'm looking for is a reman unit from a reputable rebuilder...correct?

Oh and not that I'm leaning either way but it sure was nice being able to remove a nice light small starter for a change instead of a cast iron anvil starter...just saying 😁

M Beam 75’ Avion TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff Zuki Sidekick, Dozier Al

[Updated on: Mon, 03 February 2020 18:56]

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351896 is a reply to message #351875]

Mon, 03 February 2020 22:14

Ken Burton

Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana

Karma: 10

Senior Member

For $80.00 which includes core charge (plus tax) you can a rebuilt 10MT from from Autozone and just not return the core.

For $5.00 more you can get one from Oreilly.

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351900 is a reply to message #351875]

Tue, 04 February 2020 07:49

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

If the field isn't open or shorted, or the armature the same, it ain't hard to rebuild the original. Usually clean the armature contacts up, undercut the insulation between the contacts just a bit with a hacksaw blade, and replace the brushes front bushing and rear bearing and overrunning clutch assembly. If the solenoid ring is arced up, turn it over to get a good surface and clean up the fixed contacts. Or pay it build by a good shop. Properly working you could jam the crankshaft and the original starter has about enough torque to turn the coach around it Smile

Smile

.

Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351904 is a reply to message #351896]

Tue, 04 February 2020 08:32

MikeB

Messages: 133
Registered: December 2018
Location: South Bama

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Ken Burton wrote on Mon, 03 February 2020 22:14

For $80.00 which includes core charge (plus tax) you can a rebuilt 10MT from from Autozone and just not return the core.

For $5.00 more you can get one from Oreilly.

Thanks, I'm tempted to buy one from the Autozone,Orielly,Advance stores but I have flashbacks of when I worked part time in that type of chain parts store in Fla in the 80's and seeing these Ole boys covered in grease, sweat, and blood marching in the store with fire in their eyes palming the starter in one hand and a fist in the other holding back the rage as they ask for their third lifetime warranty starter/alternator in 18 months. I wish I had original so I could take to a local rebuilder.

M Beam 75’ Avion TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff Zuki Sidekick, Dozier Al

[Updated on: Tue, 04 February 2020 10:08]

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351926 is a reply to message #351904]

Tue, 04 February 2020 16:25

roy1

Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada

Karma: 6

Senior Member

Several years ago I got my spare starter off a Cadillac eldorado early 70's vintage it was during a 50% off sale. It was an original unmolested starter.unfortunately most of what you will find these days have been rebuilt.

Roy Keen Minden,NV 76 X Glenbrook

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351928 is a reply to message #351875]

Tue, 04 February 2020 16:55

Larry

Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI

Karma: 10

Senior Member

Checked at Rock Auto and found this:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/cadillac,1976,eldorado,8.2l+500cid+v8,1409385,electrical,starter+motor,4152
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1000992&cc=1409385&jsn=9

Might be worth looking at.

Larry

Smile

78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #351929 is a reply to message #351926]

Tue, 04 February 2020 16:59

Bruce Hart

Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming

Karma: 5

Senior Member

I also got an unmolested starter out of a 1972 Tornado.

On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 3:26 PM roy keen via Gmclist
wrote:

> Several years ago I got my spare starter off a Cadillac eldorado early
> 70's vintage it was during a 50% off sale. It was an original unmolested
> starter.unfortunately most of what you will find these days have been
> rebuilt.
> --
> Roy Keen
> Minden,NV
> 76 X Glenbrook
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart 1976 Palm Beach 1977 28' Kingsley La Grange, Wyoming

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #351930 is a reply to message #351929]

Tue, 04 February 2020 17:19

James Hupy

Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010

Karma: -62

Senior Member

I have a local rebuilder here in town. He has been in business a very long
time. His bread and butter is HEAVY equipment starters, but I take him 10
or 12 starters or alternators at a time. He uses only USA produced
replacement parts, absolutely hates Chinese made. Nothing to do with the
people, he says, just their parts. He does a standard rebuild or a high
torque version on the GMC/TORONADO/ELDORADO starters. Not cheap, but less
than $100.00 U.S. money. Never had a comeback on starters or alternators he
builds for me, yet. He will modify the 66 amp to near 100 amps if you want,
for a few bucks more. I have one on my coach just to get the double pulley.
Then you only have 2 different belt lengths to keep as spares, not 3. I
don't need 100 amps capacity, most of my interior lighting is now LED's.
We don't have a TV or anything except Judy's coffee maker. That requires
shore power or generator.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Tue, Feb 4, 2020, 3:00 PM Bruce Hart via Gmclist
wrote:

> I also got an unmolested starter out of a 1972 Tornado.
>
> On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 3:26 PM roy keen via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Several years ago I got my spare starter off a Cadillac eldorado early
>> 70's vintage it was during a 50% off sale. It was an original unmolested
>> starter.unfortunately most of what you will find these days have been
>> rebuilt.
>> --
>> Roy Keen
>> Minden,NV
>> 76 X Glenbrook
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hart
> 1976 Palm Beach
> Milliken, Co
> GMC=Got More Class
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Re: Starter Problems [message #351940 is a reply to message #351904]

Wed, 05 February 2020 00:23

Ken Burton

Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana

Karma: 10

Senior Member

Almost all of those rebuilt starters, no matter what store brand you use, are done by Cardone. The one exception is ACDelco. They have a rebuild operation located somewhere in the US that I know nothing about. I have never heard any complaints with them.

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351945 is a reply to message #351875]

Wed, 05 February 2020 08:01

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

I use Dollar Carburetor and Electric. Couple of old gray haired NASCAR wrenches. Fortunately they've taught a couple of (40s) youngsters so there's continuity when they give it up. They stay busy, there's a market for doing it right.

--johnny

Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: Starter Problems [message #351947 is a reply to message #351875]

Wed, 05 February 2020 09:37

MikeB

Messages: 133
Registered: December 2018
Location: South Bama

Karma: 1

Senior Member

I had an electric motor repair shop in Memphis that did good work. Usually these kind of shops service big equipment and Farm equipment and can do any type of unit. So far here in the wire grass area the closest guy I've found with a good rep just passed away and they no longer rebuild Alt/starters. I guess no one wanted to follow in his footsteps. I'm sure there someone else maybe a little further out but for now I'll try an Autozone unit and if it fails then I'll take it to a shop.

Thanks for all the comments.

M Beam 75’ Avion TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff Zuki Sidekick, Dozier Al

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