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| Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246755] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 08:49  |
Ultravan Owners
Messages: 443
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
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Hello Everyone and Especially Engine Builders, 
If you were looking to buy an engine or a coach that had a rebuilt engine, built by an unknown builder which also sat for 5 plus years and has never been started:
(Questions)
1) What would be your concerns?
2) What would you look for?
3) And how would you value or adjust your offer due to too many unknowns? (What precent of money spent would you honestly be willing to offer.)
I know what my concerns would be. However, I like to hear from you. (Your Answer) A-1, A-2, & A-3 to help make it easier to follow.
Thank You, Tony
Tony (Ontario Canada)
Marie and I are blessed to have had a 2nd chance to buy our farm.
Still hoping and more importantly praying to be able to build a garage.
Our 1970 Ultravan #520 has an Olds Toronado 455 in back.
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| Re: Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246756 is a reply to message #246755] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 08:57  |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Biggest concern is dry cam, bearings and walls. I would fill the engine 100% to the top of the valve covers with propper ZDDP content oil (several gallons). Drain and reclaim in a large clean container for future reuse as it should be perfectly clean. Add measured 5+ quarts as required and go.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246764 is a reply to message #246755] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 10:30 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| Ultravan Owners wrote on Tue, 08 April 2014 07:49 |
Hello Everyone and Especially Engine Builders,
If you were looking to buy an engine or a coach that had a rebuilt engine, built by an unknown builder which also sat for 5 plus years and has never been started:
(Questions)
1) What would be your concerns?
2) What would you look for?
3) And how would you value or adjust your offer due to too many unknowns? (What precent of money spent would you honestly be willing to offer.)
I know what my concerns would be. However, I like to hear from you. (Your Answer) A-1, A-2, & A-3 to help make it easier to follow.
Thank You, Tony
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I think many people would consider the engine a core for a rebuild. That may not be the case and it probably could be revived, but if it never ran after the rebuild, that's a double whammy against it.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246765 is a reply to message #246764] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 10:38 |
Gadabout
Messages: 124
Registered: March 2013
Location: Edmonton
Karma: 2
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Hi Tony,
As others have suggested , preventing a dry start is your priority.
This is what I did on the Gadabout II that had not been started for 10 years.
As Cylinder walls and piston rings would be dry , my approach is to pull the spark plugs and inject automatic transmission fluid into the cylinders. (ATF is a good lube for this purpose will burn out clean and not foul the plugs) I also pour some ATF down the carb, then with the plugs removed, I crank the engine for a few minutes. (Stopping every 30 seconds so as not to overheat the starter ) This process will build oil pressure to the cam and bearings
Another recommended step is to prime using the oil pump, to do this ,
First Index the distributor so it can be reinstalled with timing close, then pull the distributor , you can now spin the oil pump with a drill and extension. Reinstall the distributor, install plugs, start engine and verify timing.
Carl Harr : Driver NASCAR Pro Series #2
1978 Gadabout-Restoring
1978 Palm Beach
1976 Glenbrook
Prevost Featherlite H3-45
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| Re: Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246766 is a reply to message #246755] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 10:45 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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My biggest concern would be the rebuilder. Did he use quiality parts and good machining of the block,crank etc. the cam should have been smothered in breakin lube,the pistons should have been dipped in oil, the crank would have been coated with a good lube,etc.Does the crank turn ok indicating the rings aren't stuck? In my location the air is very dry and if the engine was stored inside it likely wouldn't rust up internally.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
[Updated on: Tue, 08 April 2014 10:47] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246777 is a reply to message #246755] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 11:56 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Tony, the list or unknowns make this a big risk unless you are paying core prices...ie $500. If it were mine, I'd first squirt some ATF in the plug holes and, with the plugs out, see if I could turn it over by hand. If so, I'd pull the pan, check a couple bearings for tolerances and verify the shells are new, look for proper cross hatch on the cylinder walls indicating the bores were at least honed, then pre-oil, and check compression. If all that was good, I MIGHT risk buttoning it back up and installing it in a normal car. HOWEVER, in the GMC, as much pain as it is to install, I'd plan on tearing it down and verifying everything was indeed 'rebuilt' and is still in good condition.
If you could not turn it over by hand, I'd definitely tear it down completely. You might get lucky and find it has all new parts and all the machine work was done right. A light hone and a new gasket set and you've got a 'new' engine. Or you might find out that 'rebuilt' meant replacing the bearing shell on a spun bearing, a cheap gasket set, and a couple rattle cans of engine paint.
If a ring is stuck and you force it and break a ring, you can create a scratch that will require a re-bore in just a revolution or two.
I have a Chrysler 440 I built some years back. It's been on an engine stand in a storage room in my shop ever since. I KNOW what was done to it and that what was done was done right. If I ever install it, it will come down and at least re-hone the cylinders.
Perhaps the guy will sell it cheap and you can decide if you want to take the risk. At the very least, he should be willing to let you do the ATF, turn over by hand, bit. If that works, you can decide how much of a gambler you are.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246778 is a reply to message #246766] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 11:56 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Tony, I consider myself to be an Oldsmobile guy.
Wife's family were Norwegian Fishermen. Operated 30 foot sternpicker
Gill Net boats on the Cowlitz and Columbia Rivers in Washington State, and
Cook Inlet in Alaska. The 30 footers were all powered by 455 Oldsmobile
Engines connected to Berkely Jet Drives. I used to build 8 - 10 455 engines
a year for their fishing group. The seasons were very closely regulated,
some only lasting for hours, not days. So, having a boat down for engine
repairs was not an option. The economic losses of having a boat down during
the season ran into hundreds of thousands of dollars.
That brings me to the current conversation about long term storage of
engines for later use. I would take engines that the fleet would use up,
and rebuild them and place them in long term storage for later use. Some
were crated and wrapped for shipment by ocean going barge to Alaska, some I
stored, and some were kept in net warehouses along the Columbia River in
very damp and unheated conditions. Learned a good bit about storing engines
back then. Tried a lot of things, some of which worked well, other things
that did not. One of the things I learned was that once that engine is no
longer in your possession, funny stuff can happen. None of which might be
your fault, but none the less you will get blamed for. To say that
fishermen are not good mechanics might be overstating the case but not by
much.
There are a huge number of variables when an engine has been in long
term storage, and none are good for the outcome. Changing temperatures and
humidity are bad. Storing one with the plugs out is bad. Storing one with
the intake open is bad. Storing one with the exhausts open is bad. Running
in an engine, then just turning off the fuel and letting it run until the
fuel is gone is bad.
I finally settled upon running in the engine long enough to break in
the camshaft and lifters, which is about 1/2 hour at 2000 rpm or so, and
then using Mercury Marine Engine Fogging Oil down the intake until the
engine quits. Then, removing the rocker covers and loosening all the valve
rocker arm hold downs until the valves are all closed. I have some Krylon
Spray cans of rust prohibitor that I sprayed all the valve gear with before
I loosely fastened the covers back on. I would remove the oil filters used
for break in, cut them open and look for signs of early failure of internal
engine parts, and drain out the oil. Refill the crankcase with oil that the
fishermen were using along with a bottle of Lucas Oil Treatment for break
in lube for the cam and lifters along with a new wix filter. I would follow
that by driving the oil pump with a hex shaft from the distributor end with
a cordless drill until I had oil pressure.
When the engines were placed into service, the process was reversed. I
had a couple of problems with rusty cylinder bores when I did not fog off
the engines, but not after I started doing that.
On a Motorhome engine that had not been started for years, that
perhaps had bad gasoline in the tanks and carb, and open valves exposed to
the weather extremes, I would say that if you get it to run without doing
some long term damage to the engine, you will be very lucky. At the least,
you need to remove the rocker covers and look at the valve gear. If there
is any rust up there, you can be sure that you have rust in the cylinder
bores too. If you find rust, pull the heads and take care of it before you
run the engine.
But, you might get lucky, the coach might have been stored in a
climate controlled warehouse, the Sun, Moon and the Stars might have been
perfectly aligned and a whole lot of other "stuff" might have happened.
But, I would not place any large bets on it. Your experience might vary.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 8:45 AM, <roy@gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>
> My biggest concern would be the rebuilder. Did he use quiality parts and
> good machining of the block,crank etc. the cam should have been smothered
> in breaking lube,the pistons should have been dipped in oil, the crank
> would have been coated with a good lube,etc.Does the crank turn ok
> indicating the rings aren't stuck? In my location the air is very dry and
> if the engine was stored inside it likely wouldn't rust up internally.
> --
> Roy Keen
> Minden,NV
> 76 X Glenbrook
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246809 is a reply to message #246755] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 18:55 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Tony,
I have one of these:
http://www.harborfreight.com/high-resolution-digital-inspection-camera-with-recorder-67980.html
I would shove it down every orifice I could to see what the engine looked like inside.
Seeing the internal condition would let me know how much work would be required to get it back into running shape.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony
Hello Everyone and Especially Engine Builders, :)
If you were looking to buy an engine or a coach that had a rebuilt engine, built by an unknown builder which also sat for 5 plus
years and has never been started:
(Questions)
1) What would be your concerns?
2) What would you look for?
3) And how would you value or adjust your offer due to too many unknowns? (What precent of money spent would you honestly be willing
to offer.)
I know what my concerns would be. However, I like to hear from you. (Your Answer) A-1, A-2, & A-3 to help make it easier to follow.
Thank You, Tony
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246811 is a reply to message #246809] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 19:05 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I still think there are 2 issues here. The fact that it was rebuilt and never started is a huge unknown even if it was done yesterday. Then add the fact that it sat 5 years is another big issue. If you are thinking of buying, you really can't do the stuff people are suggesting--most of those address the sitting part. You really need to look at the price or offer as a coach with a blown engine and go from there if you actually purchase the thing.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246823 is a reply to message #246755] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 20:06 |
Neal Krisher
Messages: 54
Registered: November 2013
Location: Apple Valley, MN
Karma: 0
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Things I might worry about: rusty cylinder walls, stuck rings, rusty valves, dry bearing surfaces (easily fixed by priming the engine) and dried out seals.
If you could get it cheap though ...
"Life has no instruction manual. Parts and labor can be impossible to find. Many go down the road with parts that are in need of service. A breakdown is eventual."
1975 26', TZE165V100301 Project/Driver
1977 26' TZE167V100439 Parts unit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246825 is a reply to message #246822] |
Tue, 08 April 2014 20:15 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
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If you are looking for a handy low cost boroscope, try searching eBay for a USB endoscope like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/290996622407
I purchased a 5m version similar to this one. Mine has 6 LEDs for lighting and was I actually impressed with the image quality. You would need a Laptop to use it, but you get to view the images in a fair sized window on your laptop screen rather than a tiny 3x4 monitor. you also have image capture ability, but you wouldn't call it a photo quality image. You can see the finer details quite clearly though. The only unfortunate thing is it does not have a 90degree view capability, so you need to fiddle quite a bit to get to view all angles of an engine cylinder by flexing and manipulating the camera head. The LED lighting is good for tight areas and will illuminate an engine cylinder adequately. You can actully adjust the LED intensity in the software that comes with the endoscope.
Not a bad device for something made in China.
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246863 is a reply to message #246755] |
Wed, 09 April 2014 08:00 |
mrgmc3
Messages: 210
Registered: September 2013
Location: W Washington
Karma: 2
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Mostly just piling on here as you've received a lot of good answers.
My concerns would be; who did the machine work? Were they reputable? Really important. If the bores are a little out~of-round you'll always have some oil consumption for example.
Who did the assembly? Did they check all clearances and reject parts that were out of spec? Or was it "close enough"? Did they work in a surgically clean area or behind a barn?
My concern over letting it sit for 5 years would be cyl walls but primarily cam break-in. I'd squirt each bore with lube and I'd pop the intake off and coat the cam with break-in lube. I'd also prime oil pump before first-fire. Then run for 1/2 hour at >2000 rpm. Then change the oil and filter again.
It would still be a bit of a "mystery motor" and I would go on some short trips before venturing cross country
Value? Little or no added value to the coach unless he has a stack of receipts from someone we know and trust!
Chris Geils - Twin Cities / W Wa
1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; PD9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, Alcoas, 54k mi
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| Re: Engine rebuilt but never started in 5 plus years [message #246868 is a reply to message #246863] |
Wed, 09 April 2014 08:28 |
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Loffen
Messages: 1087
Registered: August 2013
Location: Norway
Karma: 1
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Ok another Norwegian way..
Option one is to tear it apart and check every part of the engine, good enouch but I would wait with that.
Does it turn ? as long as it is not frozen there is hope, out with the spark plugs and poor in a small amount of ATF (even crc or wd40 will do).
Then change the engine oil, leave the filter in place, take out the distributor and use a drill to prime it while a friend turns the cranck slowly by hand for 10 minutes or so.
Then mount the distributor and spark plugs, add some fresh gas, check oil level and try to start it, do not rev it, just keep it at 1000 rpm or so.
If it runs with no funny sounds after 5 minutes stop it and change oil ond filter, then do a regular run in on the cam and lifters, 20-30 minutes at 2000-2500 rpm, still no funny sounds ? change oil and filter again and you are done.
If it is frozen or you had any funny sounds, tear it down and repair.
To this day I never had a problem with starting up an engine as long as it has been turning, one had been sitting for over 15 years, the last one was Dobbelt trøbbel who had not been started since 2008.
In my mind you have nothing to loose, why tear down a good engine ? if it is bad you will know within an hour and you would have to repair it anyways..
1973 23' # 1848 Sky Blue Glacier called Baby Blue and a 1973 26'-3 # 1460 Parrot green Seqouia Known as the Big Green,
And sold my 1973 26'-2 # 581 White Canyon lands under the name Dobbelt trøbbel
in Norway
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