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Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #229458] Tue, 12 November 2013 09:49 Go to next message
mickey szilagyi is currently offline  mickey szilagyi   United States
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Registered: January 2013
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We've had our 77 Kingsley just over a year and have changed all the fluid except the radiator coolant. It's still clean and tests to well below 0 degrees but we don't know how old it is. We're concerned about it's anti-corrosion and lubricating properties. We've read that Emery Stora recommends changing it I think he says annually or perhaps biannually.

We believe we still have the original steel radiator. Do both steel and aluminum radiators have anodes? And if we have an anode in ours where is it located and can we remove it for inspection/replacement without draining the coolant? Does corrosion or oxidation occur when the coach is sitting in storage or only when the engine is running?

Can we add an additive and, if so, what's a good one? Do they really work? We realize it takes about 5 gallons of 50/50 mix to change it but wonder if an additive might basically do the same thing.

We currently have a 15 psi cap on the radiator. Should we change to a 9 psi cap? What difference does this make?

As always, we appreciate the input.


Mickey 1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
Re: [GMCnet] Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #229467 is a reply to message #229458] Tue, 12 November 2013 10:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Emery Stora is currently offline  Emery Stora   United States
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Registered: January 2011
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Neither radiator has anodes.

New antifreeze has several additives. They deplete over time which is why I recommend replacing the antifreeze every two years. (Biannual means twice a year. - I think you meant biennial. )

The additives in antifreeze are corrosion inhibitors, anti-foam agents, rubber swell additives, and water pump lubricants.

You won't find one additive that has all of that and if you add more than one additive you don't know if they are compatible. They might interact to form deposits or negate the properties of each of them.

Just replace the antifreeze with a known brand and you know your system is safe.

Yes, a system will corrode while just sitting -- it doesn't have to be running.

The higher the pressure of the cap, the more boilout protection. BUT, the GMC steel radiator was designed for a 9 pound cap. The tubes are "flat" and higher pressures expand the sides. When cooled they flatten again. The constant flexing can cause tubes to crack. So don't use a higher pressure cap.

Since caps are constantly opening and closing, perhaps hundreds of thousands of times per year of use, most caps lose their ability to hold pressure within about two years. So, I have a Stant pressure tester and find that I have to replace my cap about every two years along with the antifreeze.

Antifreeze is getting expensive but so is the cost of replacing a radiator, heater core, water pump, etc. so it is good insurance to replace that antifreeze biennially.

Emery Stora

On Nov 12, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Mickey Szilagyi <mickey@apex-internet.com> wrote:

>
>
> We've had our 77 Kingsley just over a year and have changed all the fluid except the radiator coolant. It's still clean and tests to well below 0 degrees but we don't know how old it is. We're concerned about it's anti-corrosion and lubricating properties. We've read that Emery Stora recommends changing it I think he says annually or perhaps biannually.
>
> We believe we still have the original steel radiator. Do both steel and aluminum radiators have anodes? And if we have an anode in ours where is it located and can we remove it for inspection/replacement without draining the coolant? Does corrosion or oxidation occur when the coach is sitting in storage or only when the engine is running?
>
> Can we add an additive and, if so, what's a good one? Do they really work? We realize it takes about 5 gallons of 50/50 mix to change it but wonder if an additive might basically do the same thing.
>
> We currently have a 15 psi cap on the radiator. Should we change to a 9 psi cap? What difference does this make?
>
> As always, we appreciate the input.
> --
> Mickey
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #229482 is a reply to message #229467] Tue, 12 November 2013 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GMC_LES is currently offline  GMC_LES   United States
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Emery,

What is your opinion on the commercial grade "ELC" coolants used in the big diesels? Any benefit to us in our coaches?

These coolants are rated for a life span of +/- 600,000 miles, 12,000 hours, or 6 years. Some are marked "OAT" for organic acid technology.

They claim to have improved heat transfer rates and have no silicates so they are supposed to reduce or eliminate scale and deposits common to regular coolants.

I am in the process of installing a coolant filter and the "ELC" coolant in my 2008 F250 diesel and was wondering if there would be any advantage or benefit to doing the same on my coach. I will probably convert all my vehicles to this same coolant so i only need to keep one coolant on hand. It reduces risk of mixing the wrong coolants.

Your thoughts?


Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress


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Les Burt Montreal 1975 Eleganza 26ft A work in Progress
Re: [GMCnet] Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #229519 is a reply to message #229482] Tue, 12 November 2013 12:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
emerystora is currently offline  emerystora   United States
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
Senior Member
My opinion is that you should RUN, not WALK away from that idea.
My son in law installed it into his older Plymouth Voyager van and it ruined the engine. He had a couple of thousand dollars of repair costs that the dealer attributed to the use of the Prestone ELC coolant.

There are many articles on the net warning about the OAT technology. He is just one of them:

http://forums.aaca.org/f162/urgent-warning-extended-life-anti-freeze-292163.html

These coolants are not designed for older engines.

Emery Stora

On Nov 12, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Les Burt <gmc.les@gmail.com> wrote:

> Emery,
>
> What is your opinion on the commercial grade "ELC" coolants used in the big diesels? Any benefit to us in our coaches?
>
> These coolants are rated for a life span of +/- 600,000 miles, 12,000 hours, or 6 years. Some are marked "OAT" for organic acid technology.
>
> They claim to have improved heat transfer rates and have no silicates so they are supposed to reduce or eliminate scale and deposits common to regular coolants.
>
> I am in the process of installing a coolant filter and the "ELC" coolant in my 2008 F250 diesel and was wondering if there would be any advantage or benefit to doing the same on my coach. I will probably convert all my vehicles to this same coolant so i only need to keep one coolant on hand. It reduces risk of mixing the wrong coolants.
>
> Your thoughts?
>
>
>

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Re: [GMCnet] Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #229522 is a reply to message #229482] Tue, 12 November 2013 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mickey szilagyi is currently offline  mickey szilagyi   United States
Messages: 273
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
OK, OK, it's not a steel radiator but brass. Shows you who I have to deal with in working on this stuff, the 3 stooges - me, myself and I. But we're trying. And yes, Biennial. I even looked it up to make sure I had it right - got bad advise, it shows. Just tell me or show me and usually I can do it.

Thanks,


Mickey 1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
Re: [GMCnet] Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #229529 is a reply to message #229522] Tue, 12 November 2013 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
Senior Member
Mickey,

Note my signature - lot's of us here but I'm the only one that fesses up to it! ;-)

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic


-----Original Message-----
From: Mickey Szilagyi

OK, OK, it's not a steel radiator but brass. Shows you who I have to deal with in working on this stuff, the 3 stooges - me,
myself and I. But we're trying. And yes, Biennial. I even looked it up to make sure I had it right - got bad advise, it shows.
Just tell me or show me and usually I can do it.

Thanks,
--
Mickey


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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #229546 is a reply to message #229519] Tue, 12 November 2013 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GMC_LES is currently offline  GMC_LES   United States
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Emery,
From my little bit of research, i found that not all of the OAT type coolants are created equally. Cummins have produced several tech documents that contradict the info in the link you provided. Apparently ( i am not an expert on this) Cummins was having gasket and seal problems with the early versions of the OAT coolants and created a new spec that carries their "Cummins 14603" certification. I have read that the ELC coolants carrying the 14603 spec are much safer, and we all know that everything we read on the web is 100% true.

My decision to use this coolant in my ford was based on reports of major engine problems related to use of the G-05 coolant that ford recommends. Apparently the designers of my engine (International) recommend using the Cummins spec coolants and not to use the G-05 in the commercial version of the engine.

For the GMC, It is sound advise to remain with the coolant that has worked for 40 years in our coachs, so i guess that is what i will do.

I still welcome any additional info on compatibility of the cummins spec coolant.

Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress



On Nov 12, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:

> My opinion is that you should RUN, not WALK away from that idea.
> My son in law installed it into his older Plymouth Voyager van and it ruined the engine. He had a couple of thousand dollars of repair costs that the dealer attributed to the use of the Prestone ELC coolant.
>
> There are many articles on the net warning about the OAT technology. He is just one of them:
>
> http://forums.aaca.org/f162/urgent-warning-extended-life-anti-freeze-292163.html
>
> These coolants are not designed for older engines.
>
> Emery Stora
>
>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Les Burt <gmc.les@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Emery,
>>
>> What is your opinion on the commercial grade "ELC" coolants used in the big diesels? Any benefit to us in our coaches?
>>
>> These coolants are rated for a life span of +/- 600,000 miles, 12,000 hours, or 6 years. Some are marked "OAT" for organic acid technology.
>>
>> They claim to have improved heat transfer rates and have no silicates so they are supposed to reduce or eliminate scale and deposits common to regular coolants.
>>
>> I am in the process of installing a coolant filter and the "ELC" coolant in my 2008 F250 diesel and was wondering if there would be any advantage or benefit to doing the same on my coach. I will probably convert all my vehicles to this same coolant so i only need to keep one coolant on hand. It reduces risk of mixing the wrong coolants.
>>
>> Your thoughts?
>
> _______________________________________________
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Les Burt Montreal 1975 Eleganza 26ft A work in Progress
Re: [GMCnet] Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #229549 is a reply to message #229546] Tue, 12 November 2013 16:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
emerystora is currently offline  emerystora   United States
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
Senior Member
Les

I really don't think that you should be comparing data on diesel engines with the gasoline engine used in
GMC motorhomes.

You can do what you want but I will stick to my current antifreeze.

Emery Stora

On Nov 12, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Les Burt <gmc.les@gmail.com> wrote:

> Emery,
> From my little bit of research, i found that not all of the OAT type coolants are created equally. Cummins have produced several tech documents that contradict the info in the link you provided. Apparently ( i am not an expert on this) Cummins was having gasket and seal problems with the early versions of the OAT coolants and created a new spec that carries their "Cummins 14603" certification. I have read that the ELC coolants carrying the 14603 spec are much safer, and we all know that everything we read on the web is 100% true.
>
> My decision to use this coolant in my ford was based on reports of major engine problems related to use of the G-05 coolant that ford recommends. Apparently the designers of my engine (International) recommend using the Cummins spec coolants and not to use the G-05 in the commercial version of the engine.
>
> For the GMC, It is sound advise to remain with the coolant that has worked for 40 years in our coachs, so i guess that is what i will do.
>
> I still welcome any additional info on compatibility of the cummins spec coolant.
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
>
>
>
> On Nov 12, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> My opinion is that you should RUN, not WALK away from that idea.
>> My son in law installed it into his older Plymouth Voyager van and it ruined the engine. He had a couple of thousand dollars of repair costs that the dealer attributed to the use of the Prestone ELC coolant.
>>
>> There are many articles on the net warning about the OAT technology. He is just one of them:
>>
>> http://forums.aaca.org/f162/urgent-warning-extended-life-anti-freeze-292163.html
>>
>> These coolants are not designed for older engines.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Les Burt <gmc.les@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Emery,
>>>
>>> What is your opinion on the commercial grade "ELC" coolants used in the big diesels? Any benefit to us in our coaches?
>>>
>>> These coolants are rated for a life span of +/- 600,000 miles, 12,000 hours, or 6 years. Some are marked "OAT" for organic acid technology.
>>>
>>> They claim to have improved heat transfer rates and have no silicates so they are supposed to reduce or eliminate scale and deposits common to regular coolants.
>>>
>>> I am in the process of installing a coolant filter and the "ELC" coolant in my 2008 F250 diesel and was wondering if there would be any advantage or benefit to doing the same on my coach. I will probably convert all my vehicles to this same coolant so i only need to keep one coolant on hand. It reduces risk of mixing the wrong coolants.
>>>
>>> Your thoughts?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Re: [GMCnet] Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #229552 is a reply to message #229549] Tue, 12 November 2013 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GMC_LES is currently offline  GMC_LES   United States
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Emery, my fleet of vehicles contains more diesel power than gas power. I was just considering the ELC for my gmc as a way of reducing shop inventory. I'm not looking to start up any arguments on this, and your comments are valued. I will most likely continue to use the basic green variety of coolant in my GMC. For my diesels, i am looking for cavitation protection as well as

Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress



On Nov 12, 2013, at 5:09 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:

> Les
>
> I really don't think that you should be comparing data on diesel engines with the gasoline engine used in
> GMC motorhomes.
>
> You can do what you want but I will stick to my current antifreeze.
>
> Emery Stora
>
>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Les Burt <gmc.les@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Emery,
>> From my little bit of research, i found that not all of the OAT type coolants are created equally. Cummins have produced several tech documents that contradict the info in the link you provided. Apparently ( i am not an expert on this) Cummins was having gasket and seal problems with the early versions of the OAT coolants and created a new spec that carries their "Cummins 14603" certification. I have read that the ELC coolants carrying the 14603 spec are much safer, and we all know that everything we read on the web is 100% true.
>>
>> My decision to use this coolant in my ford was based on reports of major engine problems related to use of the G-05 coolant that ford recommends. Apparently the designers of my engine (International) recommend using the Cummins spec coolants and not to use the G-05 in the commercial version of the engine.
>>
>> For the GMC, It is sound advise to remain with the coolant that has worked for 40 years in our coachs, so i guess that is what i will do.
>>
>> I still welcome any additional info on compatibility of the cummins spec coolant.
>>
>> Les Burt
>> Montreal
>> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
>> A work in Progress
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> My opinion is that you should RUN, not WALK away from that idea.
>>> My son in law installed it into his older Plymouth Voyager van and it ruined the engine. He had a couple of thousand dollars of repair costs that the dealer attributed to the use of the Prestone ELC coolant.
>>>
>>> There are many articles on the net warning about the OAT technology. He is just one of them:
>>>
>>> http://forums.aaca.org/f162/urgent-warning-extended-life-anti-freeze-292163.html
>>>
>>> These coolants are not designed for older engines.
>>>
>>> Emery Stora
>>>
>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Les Burt <gmc.les@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Emery,
>>>>
>>>> What is your opinion on the commercial grade "ELC" coolants used in the big diesels? Any benefit to us in our coaches?
>>>>
>>>> These coolants are rated for a life span of +/- 600,000 miles, 12,000 hours, or 6 years. Some are marked "OAT" for organic acid technology.
>>>>
>>>> They claim to have improved heat transfer rates and have no silicates so they are supposed to reduce or eliminate scale and deposits common to regular coolants.
>>>>
>>>> I am in the process of installing a coolant filter and the "ELC" coolant in my 2008 F250 diesel and was wondering if there would be any advantage or benefit to doing the same on my coach. I will probably convert all my vehicles to this same coolant so i only need to keep one coolant on hand. It reduces risk of mixing the wrong coolants.
>>>>
>>>> Your thoughts?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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Les Burt Montreal 1975 Eleganza 26ft A work in Progress
Re: Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #257325 is a reply to message #229458] Thu, 31 July 2014 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mickey szilagyi is currently offline  mickey szilagyi   United States
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Registered: January 2013
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Senior Member
My head is about to explode. We're in the process of replacing some of our coolant hoses and putting in two valves in the hoses that lead to the hot water heater. In the process we are flushing out the coolant system. We don't know how long the current coolant has been in our coach. This is being done by a repair facility that we have used for a couple years and they seem to be pretty good at what they do. They are recommending GL5 Universal Long Life coolant, 5 year, 100,000 mile. They say they have been using this in everything they service which includes lots of motorhomes and large trucks. In reading this thread many of you are saying to stay away from GO5 extended life coolants. I can't find much online about GL5 but I do see GO5. Are they the same thing or is our repair shop mixed up? Supposedly the GL5 is a glucol based coolant. I don't know what else is in it. I'd like to get this worked out once and for all before it's time to put new coolant in.

Sorry, but right now I just don't get it and don't want to do something stupid to the coach.

Thanks everyone.


Mickey 1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
Re: Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #257364 is a reply to message #257325] Thu, 31 July 2014 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob de Kruyff   United States
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
Senior Member
mickey szilagyi wrote on Thu, 31 July 2014 14:12
My head is about to explode. We're in the process of replacing some of our coolant hoses and putting in two valves in the hoses that lead to the hot water heater. In the process we are flushing out the coolant system. We don't know how long the current coolant has been in our coach. This is being done by a repair facility that we have used for a couple years and they seem to be pretty good at what they do. They are recommending GL5 Universal Long Life coolant, 5 year, 100,000 mile. They say they have been using this in everything they service which includes lots of motorhomes and large trucks. In reading this thread many of you are saying to stay away from GO5 extended life coolants. I can't find much online about GL5 but I do see GO5. Are they the same thing or is our repair shop mixed up? Supposedly the GL5 is a glucol based coolant. I don't know what else is in it. I'd like to get this worked out once and for all before it's time to put new coolant in.

Sorry, but right now I just don't get it and don't want to do something stupid to the coach.

Thanks everyone.

Long life coolants have had lots of problems in the past and people have long memories. Those have largely been solved but most of us see no real value in it for our use, especially since our systems are not always that air tight. I wouldn't worry about using it now other than the slight cost difference.


Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Re: [GMCnet] Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #257391 is a reply to message #257364] Thu, 31 July 2014 23:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
Senior Member
Mickey,

Thank them for their advice and tell them you want them to use plain old Prestone (or some other brand name) anti freeze and
DISTILLED water.

According to the GMC Maintenance Manual the cooling system takes 21 quarts. If the whole system is empty it will probably take more;
lets say an extra 4 quarts for a total of 25. For a 50/50 mix you will need four gallon jugs of Prestone and four gallon jugs of
distilled water.

DO NOT BUY 50/50 PREMIXED ANTI FREEZE YOU'RE PAYING FOR 50% WATER!

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428



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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: Radiator Antifreeze Additive and Anode [message #257429 is a reply to message #229458] Fri, 01 August 2014 09:49 Go to previous message
jhbridges is currently offline  jhbridges   United States
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
Senior Member
We run a bunch of Cummins stationary engines. When Cummins started the additive setup, it was in the coolant filter. At replacement, the tech used a test kit on the coolant to see if it needed more or less of the additive, and the filters were marked (1,2, or 3) as to the amount of additive in them. The symptom you got from improper amounts of additive was/is the liners erode where they are close to each other (directly between the cylinders) until eventually you pinhole a liner. This requires a rebuild - they're wet liners. When last we serviced our machines, the tech told me their current spec for stationary engines is a two year coolant change and skip the additive.

GMC radiators are cheap. 300KW genset radiators are >not< cheap. Too much additive will kill the radiator. Ask me how I know these things. Recoring the radiator was $1800, replacements are over 3K.

I side with Emery - don't be putting stuff in the engine that it isn't designed for.

--johnny

--n.b. anybody wants to look at the recored radiator and rebuilt engine, hit the parking garage of the Westin Peachtree Plaza in Atlanta. It's the new looking one.


Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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