Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Final Drive Options and Recommendations
| Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220331] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 12:12  |
mickey szilagyi
Messages: 273
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Our 77 Kingley is in the shop and we've found that the final drive has a bad gear. Sorry, I don't know the specific name of the gear but our problem is that there is a lot of slack when the coach is first put in drive. The gears move a lot before it actually engages. I think we have a bad/cracked ring. Whether the pinion is OK is still being determined. We have a 403 and we believe the 3.07 OEM final drive. We're now trying to decide whether to fix the current unit or replace or upgrade it to a different ratio unit. We've read a bunch of info on the forum but still have a few questions.
1. On Gene's chart it shows a Toro 2.73 FD and then the Original 3.07. Does that mean the 3.07 was specifically developed for the GMC coaches or is the 3.07 a carry over from the Toros?
2. We have a 403, live in Michigan but plan to travel with the coach all over the country so the terrain will vary. We will probably stay in MI or the Great Lakes region however most of the time.
3. We may also wish to tow a small utility trailer, small boat but also a small vehicle.
With the above in mind is repairing the 3.07 OK or should we change to another FD ratio?
We have American Eagle aluminum wheels with Michelin 225/75R16E1 tires.
We see Cinnabar has the 3.42 FD and JimK has 3.55 and 3.70 FDs.
We realize we will get a variety of responses and opinions on this and that there isn't the perfect solution but we appreciate all you help as we have in the past.
Thanks!
Mickey
1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
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| Re: Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220333 is a reply to message #220331] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 12:17  |
jknezek
Messages: 1057
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 5
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Towing in the flatland a 3.55 is fine. Towing in the mountains and you'll appreciate a 3.70. Either is more appropriate, if you are towing, than the stock 3.07. I don't have a beef with the stock 3.07, it served me well, but it didn't do well pulling our Chevy HHR even in the flat south. It was a huge difference when we went to a 3.55 but if I had to do it all over again I'd have gone to the 3.70.
The drive doesn't seem to have any negative impact on the coach going from a 3.07 to a 3.55 when not towing, it had a positive impact when towing. The extra power from the 3.70, for the small extra cost, also seems to have no downside from everyone I've ever heard from. Probably more than worth it.
Thanks,
Jeremy Knezek
1976 Glenbrook
Birmingham, AL
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| Re: Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220336 is a reply to message #220333] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 12:37 |
lw8000
Messages: 201
Registered: July 2012
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 1
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| jknezek wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 12:17 |
I don't have a beef with the stock 3.07, it served me well, but it didn't do well pulling our Chevy HHR even in the flat south. It was a huge difference when we went to a 3.55 but if I had to do it all over again I'd have gone to the 3.70.
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What were the issues when towing with the 3.07, exactly? Frequent downshifting?
Chris S. -
77 Kingsley, 3.70 FD, mostly OEM -
S.E. Michigan
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| Re: Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220337 is a reply to message #220331] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 12:40 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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If you want a 3.07, I have my old one available for sale. Make an offer. It just needs a seal kit. I replaced it with the 3.21.
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
[Updated on: Thu, 29 August 2013 12:41] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220338 is a reply to message #220336] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 12:44 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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| lw8000 wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 12:37 |
What were the issues when towing with the 3.07, exactly? Frequent downshifting?
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Yes and generally lack of oomph because the motor is at the bottom of its sweet spot.
I just put a 3.66 behind my 403 and there is a NOTICEABLE difference in pep and power. The motor runs in the middle of the torque curve and is much happier.
I found a 3.21 and added Manny's power drive (different chain sprokets ratios in the tranny) when he was building me a tranny and that is why it is a 3.66. I'd vote for the 3.70 if you're only doing the differential.
That said, if you want to run 85 mph, you might be happier with the 3.50. Our coach, seems to like 65 and that is a comfortable driving speed for me.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220345 is a reply to message #220337] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 13:10 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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I have a 3:21 with a manny chain reduction gear set for a final ratio of 3:66 available for sale as well as I have gone to the lim slip 3:55 from applied.
Make offer.
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
On Aug 29, 2013, at 10:40 AM, Chris Choffat <cchoffataz@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> If you want a 2:07, I have my old one available for sale. Make an offer. It just needs a seal kit. I replaced it with the 3:21.
>
> --
> -Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
> Scottsdale, AZ
> 77 Ex-Kingsley Featuring: 455, Power Drive, 3:21, Rockwell, Jim B QJET, Qbag. Now for Sale
> 2010 Nomad 24 Ft Travel Trailer
>
> Photosite: Chrisc "It has Begun"
> _______________________________________________
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220351 is a reply to message #220331] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 14:01 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Sir: I have seen a lot of the 3.07s have a lot of back lash. If it is running quiet with no leaks or metal shavings floating around (magnet on a stick stuck down in the fill hole) You might be OK. I would suggest getting someone more familiar with the GMC to look at it. If one gear is bad both will need to be replaced as they wear matched. If I had to replace Jim K has best warranty.
| mickey szilagyi wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 13:12 |
Our 77 Kingley is in the shop and we've found that the final drive has a bad gear. Sorry, I don't know the specific name of the gear but our problem is that there is a lot of slack when the coach is first put in drive. The gears move a lot before it actually engages. I think we have a bad/cracked ring. Whether the pinion is OK is still being determined. We have a 403 and we believe the 3.07 OEM final drive. We're now trying to decide whether to fix the current unit or replace or upgrade it to a different ratio unit. We've read a bunch of info on the forum but still have a few questions.
1. On Gene's chart it shows a Toro 2.73 FD and then the Original 3.07. Does that mean the 3.07 was specifically developed for the GMC coaches or is the 3.07 a carry over from the Toros?
2. We have a 403, live in Michigan but plan to travel with the coach all over the country so the terrain will vary. We will probably stay in MI or the Great Lakes region however most of the time.
3. We may also wish to tow a small utility trailer, small boat but also a small vehicle.
With the above in mind is repairing the 3.07 OK or should we change to another FD ratio?
We have American Eagle aluminum wheels with Michelin 225/75R16E1 tires.
We see Cinnabar has the 3.42 FD and JimK has 3.55 and 3.70 FDs.
We realize we will get a variety of responses and opinions on this and that there isn't the perfect solution but we appreciate all you help as we have in the past.
Thanks!
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220371 is a reply to message #220331] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 16:56 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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I am with the rest on recommending the 3.55 gear as a minimum upgrade. The 3.07 gear is too high a ratio for the coach. I had a lower 3.55 in our 403 77 Eleganza II and it really woke up the motor, got it up on the powerband. We run a 3.66 ratio in the stretch by using a 3.21 final and a 3.50 chain in the transmission. With the 3.07 the motor never gets up on the cam and is always lugging and you re constantly downshifting even here in the Midwest. Jim K stocks the gear right here in the Midwest in Marysville, OH., so you will have it in a few days. You can't go wrong, it will change your coach for the best.
JR Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMC Eastern States
GMCMHI
78 Buskirk 30' Stretch
1975 Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
On Aug 29, 2013, at 1:12 PM, Mickey Szilagyi <mickey@apex-internet.com> wrote:
>
>
> Our 77 Kingley is in the shop and we've found that the final drive has a bad gear. Sorry, I don't know the specific name of the gear but our problem is that there is a lot of slack when the coach is first put in drive. The gears move a lot before it actually engages. I think we have a bad/cracked ring. Whether the pinion is OK is still being determined. We have a 403 and we believe the 3.07 OEM final drive. We're now trying to decide whether to fix the current unit or replace or upgrade it to a different ratio unit. We've read a bunch of info on the forum but still have a few questions.
>
> 1. On Gene's chart it shows a Toro 2.73 FD and then the Original 3.07. Does that mean the 3.07 was specifically developed for the GMC coaches or is the 3.07 a carry over from the Toros?
>
> 2. We have a 403, live in Michigan but plan to travel with the coach all over the country so the terrain will vary. We will probably stay in MI or the Great Lakes region however most of the time.
>
> 3. We may also wish to tow a small utility trailer, small boat but also a small vehicle.
>
> With the above in mind is repairing the 3.07 OK or should we change to another FD ratio?
>
> We have American Eagle aluminum wheels with Michelin 225/75R16E1 tires.
>
> We see Cinnabar has the 3.42 FD and JimK has 3.55 and 3.70 FDs.
>
> We realize we will get a variety of responses and opinions on this and that there isn't the perfect solution but we appreciate all you help as we have in the past.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> --
> Mickey
> 1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220402 is a reply to message #220331] |
Thu, 29 August 2013 19:40 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Read what Mickey SZilagyi wrote on Thu, 29 August 2013 13:12
Mickey,
You have gotten lots of very good answers. If you noticed, there were three things:
- Backlash in the final drive is not all that bad as long as it is not "making metal".
- The 3.07 that your coach came with was wrong. It was wrong when it was built and it is still wrong.
- The 3.70 is the best choice if you have a heavy coach (you do) and/or you may want to tow anything - ever.
The extra piston/miles will be offset by the reduction in load on those same pistons. This is why nobody has seen a fuel rate penalty for the higher numerical final drive.
I have a very light coach. If I needed a final drive, I might consider a 3.55, but then again, it is a 9400# coach. I would also be very hard pressed to not get the limited slip version. For forty years these coaches have been know for not going in poor conditions (like most of Michigan's winters). People that ran them in those conditions all had chains.
Take this all as you choose, there are a few other people out here with automotive power career history. You will hear the same from them.
Matt - refugee from dynoland
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220499 is a reply to message #220331] |
Fri, 30 August 2013 10:09 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Mickey,
Another vote here for going with the 3.70 from Jim K.
I bit the bullet about two and a half years ago and replaced my 3.07 with a 3.70 limited slip. It was expensive, but it made a big improvement in drive-ability of the coach. I tend to drive no faster that 62 - 65 mph anyway, so the lower gearing hasn't been a disadvantage at speed.
Most 3/4 ton pickups (GVW of 7,500 - 9,000 lbs) of the era had 4.10 rear end gears and most one tons (GVW of 10,000 - 10,500 lbs) had 4.56 gears. These were trucks equipped with a granny gear 4-speed or a three speed automatic (no overdrive). The 3.07 was just too high for the motorhome and was used because it was available off the shelf from Toronado/ElDorado production.
The 3.70 in my heavy 26' coach with the 455 engine made a nice difference in off the line acceleration and, I'm sure, puts less strain on the transmission. I still have to drop it into "super" when climbing. There is no getting around that with a 12,000# vehicle, especially when towing a 3,000# car behind it.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220505 is a reply to message #220499] |
Fri, 30 August 2013 10:57 |
mickey szilagyi
Messages: 273
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Thank you all for the various opinions on our final drive situation. My son is convinced to go with the 3.70 since that seems to get the most votes. I'm having a harder time deciding between the 3.55 and 3.70. We have a 77 Kingsley with the 403 and it appears from what some of you have said it is on the heavy end as far the GMCs go. We may also be towing either a small utility trailer or small vehicle - something to transport a family of 5 when needed. I can't see that we would travel faster than 70 even going cross country. I pull a 21 foot boat with my 1999 Durango and I like to go between 60 and 65 so I don't see changing much with the GMC. Maybe 70 mph on the open road to make a little time. My son drives about the same way. Other than getting to our destination vacation areas on the interstates we'll be doing a fair amount of driving on two lane roads at lesser than interstate speeds. Probably not much cold/winter weather driving.
So, in trying to come to a decision, what is the peak performance RPMs and/or torque range of the 403. I'm guessing it's between 3000 and 3200 but please verify or correct me if that's not right. Maybe this is not as important as I'm assuming as there are too many different driving situations.
Also, we are undecided on the limited slip add-on. It's expensive but now would be the time to do it and it should be a one time expense. How important or how much of a factor would it play in the overall performance and use of the motorhome. Is it only helpful once in a blue moon or more often than what I imagine. Is it something that could fail or be a problem as we see it only has a 2 year 24,000 mile warrantee, less than the final drive warranties. Is that telling us something?
Finally, does the final drive assist in downhill driving and braking on long grades? Would one have an advantage over the other - 3.55 vs 3.70.
We're driving on 16 inch aluminum wheels with 225/75R16 tires.
Are there any other factors that we should consider? We realize there isn't a magical sure fire combination but we rely on the forum consensus, experience and expertise for a lot of what we have already done to our coach.
Thanks again to all, each of your comments are read and greatly appreciated.
Mickey
1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
[Updated on: Fri, 30 August 2013 11:00] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220511 is a reply to message #220505] |
Fri, 30 August 2013 11:09 |
Neil
Messages: 271
Registered: July 2007
Location: Los Angeles and Magalia, ...
Karma: 1
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We have a 3.70 with our 455 and love it. Towing, cross country, mountains.
When the Limited slip became available we switched out the regular 3.70 for the LSD. And LSD cannot overcome physics (absent serious momentum your outside wheel will spin on a tight uphill drive way towing a trailer) but is otherwise a great improvment. No more fear of parking on wet grass, for example.
Neil
76 Eleganza now sold
Los Angeles
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| Re: Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220514 is a reply to message #220331] |
Fri, 30 August 2013 11:19 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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My '78 Royale has a 403 with 3.42 Cinnabar gearing. We don't tow anything (at least not yet) but obviously encounter some pretty steep hills living in the west.
To me, the gearing is perfect, allowing lower engine speed at cruise, but extending the range of 2nd gear for those long climbs (that is, the engine's happy at 50mph climbing some pretty seriously steep hills). The shift points and performance seem "just right" to me with the 3.42, but there are a host of variables that could make this different for different folks, including that my coach has a Holley carb, as well as headers and 3" exhaust system (presumably giving me at least a little more grunt).
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: [GMCnet] Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220515 is a reply to message #220505] |
Fri, 30 August 2013 11:17 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Find a slight uphill slope covered with wet grass. Back your GMC on to the
grass with the front end upslope. Wait a few hours. Then attempt to leave.
Then you can decide if you need limited slip or not. I have a 78 GMC Royale
with a 403. It was upfitted by Coachman in May of 78 so it is a fairly late
coach. All hardwood cabinets, 6.5 KW onan, lots of golf cart batteries, Dry
bath. I carry lots of spares and tools. Net weight over 10,800 pounds. We
travel over mountain passes any which way we go except North to Seattle. I
drove the coach in 2008 and 2009 with 3:07 final drive. Then changed to
3:70. That one modification did more to improve the driveability of the
coach than anything else I have done to it. 3000 RPM equates to about 65
mph. The 403 is Happy, Happy at anything over 3000 rpm. It will easily make
80 MPH indicated on flat level ground. How much faster you choose to drive
than that is up to you. I would never go back to the 3:07
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Mickey Szilagyi
<mickey@apex-internet.com>wrote:
>
>
> Thank you all for the various opinions on our final drive situation. My
> son is convinced to go with the 3.70 since that seems to get the most
> votes. I'm having a harder time deciding between the 3.55 and 3.70. We
> have a 77 Kingsley with the 403 and it appears from what some of you have
> said it is on the heavy end as far the GMCs go. We may also be towing
> either a small utility trailer or small vehicle - something to transport a
> family of 5 when needed. I can't see that we would travel faster than 70
> even going cross country. I pull a 21 foot boat with my 1999 Durango and I
> like to go between 60 and 65 so I don't see changing much with the GMC.
> Maybe 70 mph on the open road to make a little time. My son drives about
> the same way. Other than getting to our destination vacation areas on the
> interstates we'll be doing a fair amount of driving on two lane roads at
> lesser than interstate speeds. Probably not much cold/winter weather
> driving.
>
> So, in trying to come to a decision, what is the peak performance RPMs
> and/or torque range of the 403. I'm guessing it's between 3000 and 3200
> but please verify or correct me if that's not right. Maybe this is not as
> important as I'm assuming as there are too many different driving
> situations.
>
> Also, we are undecided on the limited slip add-on. It's expensive but now
> would be the time to do it and it should be a one time expense. How
> important or how much of a factor would it play in the overall performance
> and use of the motorhome. Is it only helpful once in a blue moon or more
> often than what I imagine. Is it something that could fail or be a problem
> as we see it only has a 2 year 24,000 mile warrantee, less than the final
> drive warranties. Is that telling us something?
>
> Finally, does the final drive assist in downhill driving and braking on
> long grades? Would one have an advantage over the other - 3.55 vs 3.70.
>
> Are there any other factors that we should consider? We realize there
> isn't a magical sure fire combination but we rely on the forum consensus,
> experience and expertise for a lot of what we have already done to our
> coach.
>
> Thanks again to all, each of your comments are read and greatly
> appreciated.
> --
> Mickey
> 1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Final Drive Options and Recommendations [message #220542 is a reply to message #220515] |
Fri, 30 August 2013 13:35 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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For me the limited slip was a no brainer because of the dirt roads and soft camping spots that I frequently encounter:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/towing-etc/p41602-sand-dunes-2011.html
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/trip-to-silver-city-nm-7-2010/p35189-silver-city-trip.html
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/trips/p46618-november-2012-thanksgi.html
I rarely, if ever, park in grass, but I have heard of people getting stuck on level ground with wet grass under their tires.
I run a set of BFG All Terrain tires on the front of my coach on 16" X 8" Dodge truck wheels and have worn the tires out (evenly) in only about 15,000 miles. I'm guessing the factors are; soft rubber compound, weight, steering, and drive axle. The limited slip diff may have contributed to the excessive tire wear as well. I'm considering going to a different type of tire, but am having a hard time finding a suitable tire with the right physical dimensions that can handle the weight. I might end up replacing these with the same thing.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/dodge-front-wheels-5-10/p34779-dodge-front-wheels.html
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/dodge-front-wheels-5-10/p34781-dodge-front-wheels.html
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Final Drive Options and Recommendations - Update [message #220570 is a reply to message #220331] |
Fri, 30 August 2013 19:13 |
mickey szilagyi
Messages: 273
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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The deed is done....
Just ordered the 3.70 with the limited slip option. Biting the bullet on the cost. Also the speedometer reducer for 225/75R16 wheels/tires. All this based on the responses all of you provided.
Told to use blue locktite and 100 ft lbs plus on the nuts. Going with the standard cover. Put 60W90 non-synthetic lube in it for the first 1000-2000 miles. It might be a bit noisy at first. Change the lube to 60W90 synthetic without additives after that. May bump-up the timing a couple degrees.
Comments appreciated...
Mickey
1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
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