Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Vaporlock baseline temperatures
| Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211128] |
Sat, 15 June 2013 06:15  |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
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Has anyone started collecting data on temps during vaporlock episodes? I'm thinking that ambient, undercarriage, tank walls (forward & rear edges), fuel line, and other points would give us some much-needed feedback.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211139 is a reply to message #211128] |
Sat, 15 June 2013 08:33  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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RC,
Could you explain what we would learn from that data and how we would use it to solve the problem?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Jordan
Has anyone started collecting data on temps during vaporlock episodes? I'm thinking that ambient, undercarriage, tank walls
(forward & rear edges), fuel line, and other points would give us some much-needed feedback.
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Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211142 is a reply to message #211128] |
Sat, 15 June 2013 08:52 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
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From my post in the other thread:
"I spent some time researching rice boy and/or big block gas-burner forums on this issue yesterday. In short, unless you go with very active systems such as co2 coolers, cold cans, etc. the results were so inconclusive that they were deemed not worth pursuing. Active systems certainly violate KISS and aren't of interest to me, either. Semi-passive systems, such as re-routing the condensate drip to provide evaporative cooling on the fuel tanks while underway might be worthwhile if they are so cheap and easy to do that they fall into the 'why not' category.
The one fix that did seem to have some traction was along the lines of what Emery has said; shield the tanks or, perhaps better, add heat sinks to the tanks.
The one other takeaway was that adding a bypass line to recirculate the fuel can end up raising the temperature in the tanks by several degrees."
JimB and I had a good phone discussion yesterday about addressing vaporlock. I suspect the tank is the culprit, having difficulty believing that the comparatively small surface area of the lines can pick up as much heat. JimB mentioned heat from the mufflers heating the airflow. What are road surface temps when this starts? We decided we needed some baselines.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211182 is a reply to message #211142] |
Sat, 15 June 2013 18:40 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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RC,
Thanks! Comments below.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Jordan
From my post in the other thread:
"I spent some time researching rice boy and/or big block gas-burner forums on this issue yesterday. In short, unless you go with
very active systems such as co2 coolers, cold cans, etc. the results were so inconclusive that they were deemed not worth pursuing.
Active systems certainly violate KISS and aren't of interest to me, either. Semi-passive systems, such as re-routing the condensate
drip to provide evaporative cooling on the fuel tanks while underway might be worthwhile if they are so cheap and easy to do that
they fall into the 'why not' category.
Comments:
1) The amount of condensate available is proportional to the amount of humidity in the ambient air. In the Southwest where you would
probably need the max amount of cooling for the gas in the tanks you have the lowest humidity..
2) The amount of heat absorbed from the road by the gas tanks in our GMC's is very high due to their size and close proximity.
3) In my opinion you would not be able to remove enough heat from the tanks with condensate water spraying on them.
The one fix that did seem to have some traction was along the lines of what Emery has said; shield the tanks or, perhaps better, add
heat sinks to the tanks.
Comments:
1) Shielding the tanks with Lizard Skin and / or diamond plate will delay the effects of the road heat on the fuel tanks but
eventually the tank will reach the same temps as the unshielded tank. However, it has been noted by an individual that installed
diamond plate that he does not have vapor lock problems. That means in his case it delays the problem long enough for his driving
habits. Time / distance / OAT between fuel stops.
The one other takeaway was that adding a bypass line to recirculate the fuel can end up raising the temperature in the tanks by
several degrees."
Comment: This is a concern, however, if there was some kind of cooling system on that line to drop the temperature of the fuel
SIGNIFICANTLY it would be a winner.
JimB and I had a good phone discussion yesterday about addressing vaporlock. I suspect the tank is the culprit, having difficulty
believing that the comparatively small surface area of the lines can pick up as much heat. JimB mentioned heat from the mufflers
heating the airflow. What are road surface temps when this starts? We decided we needed some baselines.
Comment: I agree 100% that the problem is the fuel tanks, Double Trouble has rubber fuel lines and I doubt much heat is passed into
the fuel through them. The exhaust pipe down the passenger side of the frame would definitely add heat to the passenger side of the
fuel tanks. As far as road temps go AFAIK that info is academic IIRC problems with vapor lock have been reported at OAT's in the
80's. The question that needs to be answered is what temp does the gas in the tanks get to so we need to know how much it needs to
be cooled down to bring the fuel down below it's boiling point at ambient pressure (or slightly negative when being sucked by the
mechanical pump). It has been noted here that 105 ethanol lowers the boiling point of the fuel and that the soon to be 15% will
lower it further.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211267 is a reply to message #211128] |
Sun, 16 June 2013 11:50 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
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>tropical roof
The air gap and reflective white surface works. Is it as cold as AC? No.
>Chuck Garton
THAT's my dream coach! Gauges as far as the eye can see.
From his 3-tank article:
"Last summer, during a trip to the east coast, I experienced vapor lock problems when forced to idle on 100°+ days for more than three minutes. When I returned home, I abandoned the stock steel fuel line that ran inside the frame around the engine and ran a new steel line outside the frame. When I finished this task, it was 105° in Ridgecrest and I drove to a large empty black asphalt parking lot and idled for thirty minutes with no vapor lock problems."
From the Western States article:
"The hottest fuel temperature I have observed was 148 degrees – twice. Once on Baker Grade on I-15, and another time on I-84 east of Portland, OR. In both cases it was August and the outside temperature was 115 . The temperature outside the frame was 122 . On I-15 Baker Grade with two fuel tanks, the front tank was 5 degrees hotter than the rear tank. On I-84 with three tanks, the front tank was 5 degrees hotter than than both rear tanks.
Generally speaking, my fuel temperatures run 30 warmer than outside temperatures. After installing heat shielding between the exhaust pipe and the fuel tanks, I could not detect any change in fuel temperatures. ...Right now, I am not experiencing vapor lock but I have been here before!"
Is Chuck's coach carb or efi?
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211700 is a reply to message #211128] |
Thu, 20 June 2013 14:05 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
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>how that relates to our discussion of heat being absorbed by the fuel tanks.
Invert it, make a tank shield with the same airflow-between-the-layers design.
>JimB
For some reason, I don't like the idea of insulating the tanks even with Lizardskin. No science to back it up, just a gut call based on some previous experience. What feels right is a heat sink. Something similar to the Ragusa tran pan. With an "tropical tank shield."
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211715 is a reply to message #211128] |
Thu, 20 June 2013 16:36 |
Michael Morton
Messages: 21
Registered: July 2004
Karma: 0
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Guys, I just can't believe that everyone keeps trying to over engineer this vapor lock problem. I have posted a couple times how I cured my problem and been told it wouldn’t work. After rebuilding, restoring, and racing many different things for the last 40 years, I believe in the KISS principle. (keep it simple stupid). I started racing dirt bikes, moved into go carts, drag cars, road race cars, have build 2 motorcycles that hold land speed records. But my first love is airplanes. I am a licensed aircraft and power plant mechanic and an airline captain. I have raced an airplane at Reno, flown airshows in several different aerobatic aircraft and presently maintain several war birds that I fly at shows. My main hobby is restoring antique aircraft, just finished rebuilding the 300hp engine on my airshow aircraft. Lost count of how many aircraft engines I have rebuilt over the years. I'm just saying this to show that I am no dummy when it comes to mechanical things. I read about coolers, tank insulation, in tank pumps, and many more ideas. All that is required is a simple fuel return line. Just tap and install a fitting in the top of the fuel filter housing at the carb, install another one in the fuel filler neck, located in the engine compartment under the drivers seat and connect the two with a 1/4 inch line. I did this 2 years ago and haven't have a hint of vapor lock problem since. Now I just use my electric fuel pump to fill the carb after a long sit to make it start easier. With the fuel constantly flowing there is little chance for vapor lock and if vapor does form it is routed back to the fuel tank. I did say to install the fitting on the top of the fuel filter housing, didn't I? This maintains reliable fuel to the carb bowl. Most carburated and fuel injected aircraft use a fuel return to combat vapor lock. All the cars I own I have bought salvage and rebuilt so I know them inside and out, my BMW, and Ford F150 with fuel injection use fuel returns, hell even my carburated 1985 Jeep CJ7, and 1966 AC Cobra use a fuel return. Just keep it simple, install a fuel return and enjoy your ride. After all, we are dealing with a motor home built in the 70s using 50s technology, it's not rocket science.
Sorry to toot my horn, but this is not my first rodeo.
Mike Morton
1975 Eleganza (Sloopy)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211721 is a reply to message #211715] |
Thu, 20 June 2013 17:41 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Mike,
I must have missed this info earlier and would like a bit of additional information as it is an interesting approach.
1) Instead of tapping into the carb filter housing do you believe a "T" at the inlet would suffice?
2) How did you install a fitting in the fuel filler neck?
3) What material is the line that goes from the carb inlet filter to the fuel filler neck
4) Where is your electric fuel pump located?
1. Physically?
2. In the fuel flow path?
5) I assume you have removed the mechanical fuel pump?
6) Have you operated the GMC equipped with this system at high altitudes (Eisenhower Pass) through the Rockies and at high summer at
high temps?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Morton
Guys, I just can't believe that everyone keeps trying to over engineer this vapor lock problem. I have posted a couple times how I
cured my problem and been told it wouldn’t work. After rebuilding, restoring, and racing many different things for the last 40
years, I believe in the KISS principle. (keep it simple stupid). I started racing dirt bikes, moved into go carts, drag cars, road
race cars, have build 2 motorcycles that hold land speed records. But my first love is airplanes. I am a licensed aircraft and power
plant mechanic and an airline captain. I have raced an airplane at Reno, flown airshows in several different aerobatic aircraft and
presently maintain several war birds that I fly at shows. My main hobby is restoring antique aircraft, just finished rebuilding the
300hp engine on my airshow aircraft. Lost count of how many aircraft engines I have rebuilt over the years. I'm just saying this to
show that I am no dummy when it comes to mechanical things. I read about coolers, tank insulation, in tank pumps, and many more
ideas. All that is required is a simple fuel return line. Just tap and install a fitting in the top of the fuel filter housing at
the carb, install another one in the fuel filler neck, located in the engine compartment under the drivers seat and connect the two
with a 1/4 inch line. I did this 2 years ago and haven't have a hint of vapor lock problem since. Now I just use my electric fuel
pump to fill the carb after a long sit to make it start easier. With the fuel constantly flowing there is little chance for vapor
lock and if vapor does form it is routed back to the fuel tank. I did say to install the fitting on the top of the fuel filter
housing, didn't I? This maintains reliable fuel to the carb bowl. Most carburated and fuel injected aircraft use a fuel return to
combat vapor lock. All the cars I own I have bought salvage and rebuilt so I know them inside and out, my BMW, and Ford F150 with
fuel injection use fuel returns, hell even my carburated 1985 Jeep CJ7, and 1966 AC Cobra use a fuel return. Just keep it simple,
install a fuel return and enjoy your ride. After all, we are dealing with a motor home built in the 70s using 50s technology, it's
not rocket science.
Sorry to toot my horn, but this is not my first rodeo.
Mike
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211722 is a reply to message #211715] |
Thu, 20 June 2013 17:54 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Michael,
I've heard that before, the idea being to let the bubbles out.
how do you keep the fuel pressure up with the return line?
Is there a restriction or pressure regulator in the return line?
The fuel filter housing, you mean the fuel inlet on the carb?
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211726 is a reply to message #211721] |
Thu, 20 June 2013 18:31 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
I think John Helinga has installed a similar return line on his coach and documented it on the gmc photo site.
I rarely have success finding things on the photo site; maybe you can find it. Or, perhaps John will see this and join the discussion.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211731 is a reply to message #211715] |
Thu, 20 June 2013 18:58 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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| Michael Morton wrote on Thu, 20 June 2013 14:36 |
Guys, I just can't believe that everyone keeps trying to over engineer this vapor lock problem). All that is required is a simple fuel return line. Just tap and install a fitting in the top of the fuel filter housing at the carb, install another one in the fuel filler neck, located in the engine compartment under the drivers seat and connect the two with a 1/4 inch line. I did this 2 years ago and haven't have a hint of vapor lock problem since.
Mike Morton
1975 Eleganza (Sloopy)
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I agree with Mike in the KISS method. A number of us have fuel injection and the throttle body EFIs all have a fuel return. I personally have not had vaporlock, but I believe some EFI users have had vapor lock problems.
It is this that leads me to believe that _if_ you can get the pump to pump, all will probably be well. It is the _if_ that is the problem. Pumps have higher pressure after they pump but the real problem is the lower pressure before the pump. Lower pressure equals lower boiling temp. (of course the release of pressure in the carb bowl could also be a problem)
I am going to start taking tank temps with my laser thermometer. One day I was stopped fiddling with something and happened to put my hand on the front tank. It was surprisingly cool to the touch. It was not a hot day but not winter either but the tank was cool. I am getting curious. ( my tanks are not painted or anything. They are the color of 40 years under a coach. ) I have front mufflers which can't help. I do have heat shields next to the exhaust.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211732 is a reply to message #211731] |
Thu, 20 June 2013 19:00 |
Ronald Pottol
Messages: 505
Registered: September 2012
Location: Redwood City, California
Karma: -2
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Senior Member |
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What about running the return line through a radiator or some such, and
then back to the tank?
On Jun 20, 2013 4:58 PM, "George Beckman" <gbeckman@pggp.com> wrote:
>
>
> Michael Morton wrote on Thu, 20 June 2013 14:36
> > Guys, I just can't believe that everyone keeps trying to over engineer
> this vapor lock problem). All that is required is a simple fuel return
> line. Just tap and install a fitting in the top of the fuel filter housing
> at the carb, install another one in the fuel filler neck, located in the
> engine compartment under the drivers seat and connect the two with a 1/4
> inch line. I did this 2 years ago and haven't have a hint of vapor lock
> problem since.
> >
> > Mike Morton
> > 1975 Eleganza (Sloopy)
>
>
> I agree with Mike in the KISS method. A number of us have fuel injection
> and the throttle body EFIs all have a fuel return. I personally have not
> had vaporlock, but I believe some EFI users have had vapor lock problems.
>
> It is this that leads me to believe that _if_ you can get the pump to
> pump, all will probably be well. It is the _if_ that is the problem. Pumps
> have higher pressure after they pump but the real problem is the lower
> pressure before the pump. Lower pressure equals lower boiling temp. (of
> course the release of pressure in the carb bowl could also be a problem)
>
> I am going to start taking tank temps with my laser thermometer. One day I
> was stopped fiddling with something and happened to put my hand on the
> front tank. It was surprisingly cool to the touch. It was not a hot day but
> not winter either but the tank was cool. I am getting curious. ( my tanks
> are not painted or anything. They are the color of 40 years under a coach.
> ) I have front mufflers which can't help. I do have heat shields next to
> the exhaust.
> --
> '74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
> Best Wishes,
> George
> _______________________________________________
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1973 26' GM outfitted
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| Re: Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211733 is a reply to message #211128] |
Thu, 20 June 2013 19:23 |
bobby5832708
Messages: 237
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winter Springs FL
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Mike,
I also installed a vapor bleed-off line on my GMC a few years ago and it never vapor locks. I use whatever the cheapest brand of fuel is available, am able to idle in a traffic jam for an hour, pull out from a rest area to a 70 mph highway, drive around town as long as I want, all without the engine ever missing a beat.
My fuel delivery system is not quite stock. I'm using a Carter 4070 pump on each tank, no mechanical pump on the engine, no socks in the tanks (Wix disposable filters externally), Gates fuel line, check valves to isolate the fuel flow from each pump, a Magnafuel pressure regulator, a plumbing tee with one leg filled with solder and drilled with about a .020 hole (the bypass to keep the fuel flowing back to the tank), and finally a Quadrajet carb to feed the engine.
The dual pumps are probably overkill but my thought was that if one pump fails I just move the dash switch and have a 'hot spare' kick in immediately. What can I say, it works fine. If I were to do it again I would get the Magnafuel regulator that has a built in bypass instead of making my own bypass from a plumbing tee.
This vapor bypass is not something new. Many cars from the 70's had it in one form or another. Many air-conditioned GM cars had a bypass, usually as a third nipple on the fuel pump. Some Pontiacs and Mopars that I've seen in the past use a fuel filter with a third line on them with a restriction so a small amount of fuel is constantly circulating. It's not like we've discovered something magical, Detroit did this years ago. Why they did this vapor bypass line on the Toronado or Olds 98 or Buick Electra and not on the GMC motorhome is beyond me. Even a 4 cyl Dodge K-Car from the early 80's had a vapor bypass line.
On my 1974 GMC there is an unused 3/8" nipple on the rear gas tank on the drivers side about an inch from the top. It's capped off from the factory and this is what I used as my fuel return port. I discovered it when I removed the tanks in 2007 to replumb the fuel system. For those who want to keep a mechanical fuel pump I would think that using one for a Toronado with air conditioning and then plumbing the third connection back to this fuel tank fitting would be the solution. I'm pretty sure later model GMC's do not have this extra fitting on their fuel tanks so some other provision would have to be made for a fuel return.
I'm not a master in physics, but I know that a liquid pump does not work very well when even a little bit of air (or vapor) is in it, especially with it's trying to push into a substantial head of liquid. If you let just a little air into your swimming pool pump the flow goes down to almost nothing. Same with a sprinkler pump. Ever try to prime a sprinkler shallow-well pump while it's pushing against a 150 foot head of water (not 150 foot lift, just 150 feet of water-filled pipe? Until all the air is gone the flow is almost nil and you've got to let the air out close to the pump, it doesn't push all that water out of the way very well with air in the pump chamber. Same theory with our fuel pumps, they've got to have 100% liquid in them to work properly.
Cars vapor-locked years ago too, it's not just because of the fuel we use today. On Google Books there are all the old Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines. Look at the ads for Stewart-Warner electric fuel pumps where they claim to eliminate vapor lock. This is from the 1950's. See the articles written about vapor lock from the 40's, 50's, and 60's. Vapor lock is NOT something new. The ethanol in the gas we use today may make the problem slightly worse but vapor lock has been an issue for carbureted engines for decades. Blame faulty engineering and bean-counters not approving a couple of dollars worth of parts at least as much as blaming todays fuel.
One of my first jobs was as a driver for an auto parts store in northern NJ in the mid 70's BE (before ethanol). The 1969 Plymouth wagon with 318 vapor-locked in hot weather. There's nothing like pulling out onto US-46 (50 mph, 4-lane, lots of traffic) and getting up to 25 mph and losing power for a few seconds. Nothing I could do but keep the pedal down and wait for 4-5 seconds until the engine slowly sputtered back to life and hoping to not get hit by other cars. More than once I was on the receiving end of horns and middle fingers.
Instead of constantly bitching about todays fuel, which works just fine in all the modern fuel injected cars I've owned and driven, (and isn't going away any time soon) I decided to do something so the GMC would also run well on it. Apparently I've done it, and so have you.
Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Vaporlock baseline temperatures [message #211756 is a reply to message #211715] |
Fri, 21 June 2013 06:12 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Mike,
Â
Can I install a 3 port mechanical fuel pump and use the return from it to set up the same condition?    A friend of mine here in Florida has done that and feels it is a major addition to his system
Â
Jim Bounds
---------
________________________________
From: Michael Morton <memorton@charter.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Vaporlock baseline temperatures
Guys, I just can't believe that everyone keeps trying to over engineer this vapor lock problem. I have posted a couple times how I cured my problem and been told it wouldn’t work. After rebuilding, restoring, and racing many different things for the last 40 years, I believe in the KISS principle. (keep it simple stupid). I started racing dirt bikes, moved into go carts, drag cars, road race cars, have build 2 motorcycles that hold land speed records. But my first love is airplanes. I am a licensed aircraft and power plant mechanic and an airline captain. I have raced an airplane at Reno, flown airshows in several different aerobatic aircraft and presently maintain several war birds that I fly at shows. My main hobby is restoring antique aircraft, just finished rebuilding the 300hp engine on my airshow aircraft. Lost count of how many aircraft engines I have rebuilt over the years. I'm just saying this to show that I am no dummy when it comes to
mechanical things. I read
 about coolers, tank insulation, in tank pumps, and many more ideas. All that is required is a simple fuel return line. Just tap and install a fitting in the top of the fuel filter housing at the carb, install another one in the fuel filler neck, located in the engine compartment under the drivers seat and connect the two with a 1/4 inch line. I did this 2 years ago and haven't have a hint of vapor lock problem since. Now I just use my electric fuel pump to fill the carb after a long sit to make it start easier. With the fuel constantly flowing there is little chance for vapor lock and if vapor does form it is routed back to the fuel tank. I did say to install the fitting on the top of the fuel filter housing, didn't I? This maintains reliable fuel to the carb bowl. Most carburated and fuel injected aircraft use a fuel return to combat vapor lock. All the cars I own I have bought salvage and rebuilt so I know them inside and out, my BMW, and Ford F150
with fuel injection use
 fuel returns, hell even my carburated 1985 Jeep CJ7, and 1966 AC Cobra use a fuel return. Just keep it simple, install a fuel return and enjoy your ride. After all, we are dealing with a motor home built in the 70s using 50s technology, it's not rocket science.
Sorry to toot my horn, but this is not my first rodeo.
Mike Morton
1975 Eleganza (Sloopy)
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