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[GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62220]

Wed, 28 October 2009 21:19

corunnadon

Messages: 18
Registered: February 2004
Location: Cournna, Michigan

Karma: 0

Junior Member

Still working on starter problem, it has been discussed here many times
before. was starting good, them nothing, reworked all cables and grounds
and now have accessories all 12 volt elect except starter, solenoid clunks
loud but no start, replace solenoid and starter and still just a loud clunk
in solenoid. Any suggestions or direction to something on the net. Thanks

Don
Corunna, MI

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Don Hart
Corunna, MI
75-76 Glenbrook

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62226 is a reply to message #62220]

Wed, 28 October 2009 21:40

GeorgeRud

Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Have you checked the voltage at the starter solenoid when someone turns the key to start?

If you have 12 volts there, I would wonder if it would make any sense to remove the starter and see if it spins freely when not attached (perhaps some sort of mechanical interference with the ring gear?).

George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62227 is a reply to message #62220]

Wed, 28 October 2009 21:42

hal kading

Messages: 642
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Cruces NM

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Don,

Have you tried pulling the spark plugs and checking to see if the engine will turn?

Hal Kading 77 Kingsley 455 Las Cruces NM

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62229 is a reply to message #62227]

Wed, 28 October 2009 21:49

corunnadon

Messages: 18
Registered: February 2004
Location: Cournna, Michigan

Karma: 0

Junior Member

Hal and George,

I am willing to try anything so will do that in the morning, Thanks

Don
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75-76 Glenbrook

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62232 is a reply to message #62227]

Wed, 28 October 2009 22:01

Bill Massey

Messages: 201
Registered: March 2009

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Senior Member

Ouch! That brings back memories. I once was having trouble with my son's '68
Camaro. Had an Edelbrock carb on it and had been sitting for a couple years.
Red Holly fuel pump churning away all the while. Starter got slower and slower
till it wouldn't crank at all. Thought the battery was dead. Boosting it did
no good. A real brain stumper. Scratching my head for ideas, I checked the
dipstick for some strange reason. It was full of gasoline! Inlet valve on the
carb had stuck open. Cylinders were hydraulically locked with fuel!

What a mess! Was a brand new 383 and was very lucky not to have torn it up or
blew it and my shop to smitherenes.

I hope this is not Don's problem. Especially since it's been ongoing for a
couple of weeks.

bdub

-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of Hal Kading
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:43 PMSubject: Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems

Have you tried pulling the spark plugs and checking to see if the engine will
turn?

Hal Kading 77 Kingsley 455 Las Cruces NM

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62265 is a reply to message #62220]

Thu, 29 October 2009 07:21

hertfordnc

Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC

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You said you reworked all the grounds but....

How is the engine grounded? I don't know about GMCs but I've seen this on lots of cars and boats.

Is there a solid ground from the chassis to the block?

If it were me I would bolt the battery's neg cable to the starter for troubleshooting purposes. Or perhaps just try jumper cables.
Rust, rubber motor mounts, greased bearings, etc provide a lot of resistance. The engine will get enough juice to power all the accessories but the amps needed to turn the starter will not get through.

dave

Dave & Ellen Silva Hertford, NC 76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021 It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62274 is a reply to message #62220]

Thu, 29 October 2009 08:13

rgleas

Messages: 48
Registered: May 2009
Location: Tulsa, Ok.

Karma: 0

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I had a friend the other day that was complaining of the same problem. He had diagnosed it as the starter solinoid however, he told me he could get under it and start it with a screw driver. I told him it was not the solinoid. To prove it to him I traced the wire to the start function of the solinoid up to the block were it penatrates the firewall. There I pierced the wire with a pin where I used another piece of wire to touch the battery positive terminal and the pin. Sure enough it started right up.

The I explained to him that I have two other GMC products that do the same thing. What is causing it is anything in the start circuit that closes as a switch to complete the path. The starter switch itself in the steering column, the neutral/park switch on the transmission, even a corroded pin in the firewall block will cause it, a corroded supply wire to the key switch can cause it. More than likely if it will start in the manor described above, you will be working on it and all of the sudden it will start working. What will have happened is that you will have again made solid contact.

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62279 is a reply to message #62274]

Thu, 29 October 2009 08:50

hertfordnc

Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC

Karma: 0

Senior Member

rgleas wrote on Thu, 29 October 2009 08:13

What is causing it is anything in the start circuit that closes as a switch to complete the path. The starter switch itself in the steering column, the neutral/park switch on the transmission, even a corroded pin in the firewall block will cause it, a corroded supply wire to the key switch can cause it.

But don said he is getting a loud "click" So doesn't that rule out an open in the current path from the key?

I have owned a GMC for almost three weeks now and I've driven it about 18 feet, so based on that vast experience, I am betting that the engine is not mechanically bound up and that the problem is inadequate current (current not voltage) to the starter caused by bad connections, most likely at the engine ground.

The process to find a solution is a methodical breakdown of the problem.

If it's easy to confirm the engine being mechanically bound up then by all means, do that first.

Another quick test would be to turn the key and hold it for just a few seconds- very few- like, count to four.

THen see if the starter is warm. If all 600 cranking amps get to the starter it will get hot if it can not convert the energy to motion it will convert it to heat.

If it is not hot then the energy never got to it.

dave

Dave & Ellen Silva Hertford, NC 76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021 It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62281 is a reply to message #62279]

Thu, 29 October 2009 09:02

rgleas

Messages: 48
Registered: May 2009
Location: Tulsa, Ok.

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I got the same thing on the two other GMC products I also own a Caddillac Alante and a 71 GMC pickup. I replaced starters with solinoids on both because of this problem.

The loud click is that there is enough voltage to pull the solinoid in but not enough to make contact. It is a simple process to prove whether it is the starting circuit or the starter by simply shorting from the big post on the solinoid to the start post. If it starts its not the starter or solinoid. If you don't like the screw driver trick, most auto supply stores sell a remote starter switch. This is a hand held switch with two wires one you connect to the batter positive and the other you connect to the start post.

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62284 is a reply to message #62281]

Thu, 29 October 2009 09:23

Al Scott

Messages: 15
Registered: November 2004

Karma: 0

Junior Member

IIRC, there are two windings in the starter solenoid. Both are used to pull it in, then only one is used to hold it in.
If one is bad, it will still start in and make the click but never make contact. Also this can be intermittent.
I don't know a way to measure each coils resistance to verify an open wire.

Al Scott
Dixon, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger P. Gleason
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems

I got the same thing on the two other GMC products I also own a Caddillac Alante and a 71 GMC pickup. I replaced starters with solinoids on both because of this problem.

The loud click is that there is enough voltage to pull the solinoid in but not enough to make contact. It is a simple process to prove whether it is the starting circuit or the starter by simply shorting from the big post on the solinoid to the start post. If it starts its not the starter or solinoid. If you don't like the screw driver trick, most auto supply stores sell a remote starter switch. This is a hand held switch with two wires one you connect to the batter positive and the other you connect to the start post.
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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62292 is a reply to message #62220]

Thu, 29 October 2009 09:44

Terry Skinner

Messages: 379
Registered: January 2004

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Have you tried by-passing the whole thing?? While out on a camping
trip our GMC wouldn't turn over so I took the right wheel-well out so
that I could reach in with a long screwdriver and activate the
solenoid. Turned over and started right up. Next stop was a hardware
store. A couple feet of jumper wire and a push button mounted up by
the dash and we were off and gone again. The problem we had turned out
to be in the steering column.
My question is which is it?? Will it turn over?? Will it start?? They
are not the same thing and you keep saying "it won't start" but
everything you have fixed has to do with "turning over". Please be
more specific so we can help you.........Terry

On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 7:19 PM, <hartdna@chartermi.net> wrote:
> Still working on starter problem, �it has been discussed here many times
> before. � was starting good, them nothing, reworked all cables and grounds
> and now have accessories all 12 volt elect except starter, solenoid clunks
> loud but no start, replace solenoid �and starter and still just a loud clunk
> in solenoid. �Any suggestions or direction to something on the net. �Thanks
>
> Don
> Corunna, MI
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

--
Terry Skinner
Roy. Washington
'76 GMC
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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62302 is a reply to message #62220]

Thu, 29 October 2009 10:43

mike miller

Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon

Karma: 0

Senior Member

corunnadon wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 19:19

Still working on starter problem, ...

Lots of good suggestions. But before bypassing all the safety interlocks and jumping the starter...

MAKE SURE IT IS IN PARK!!!

It would not be fun to have it start up and go... with you under it! Shocked

Shocked

Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo' http://m000035.blogspot.com

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62303 is a reply to message #62220]

Thu, 29 October 2009 11:03

RF_Burns

Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada

Karma: 3

Senior Member

I had the same problem after the starter motor and engine was rebuilt.
The starter guy changed the no-name solenoid a couple times, same thing.

He then dismantled the motor and found the "Y" leaver that connects the solenoid to the gear drive was sticking. Another new gear drive assembly and some lube and everything works now.

Pull on the headlights and have someone watch their brightness while your turn the key.
-IF the lights dim significantly then the starter motor is engaging and drawing full current... something is preventing the motor from turning.

-IF the lights don't dim much then the starter drive gear is not engaging properly. The drive gear must engage before the starter gets full current, therefore all you will hear is a CLICK!

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

[Updated on: Thu, 29 October 2009 11:05]

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62304 is a reply to message #62265]

Thu, 29 October 2009 11:10

corunnadon

Messages: 18
Registered: February 2004
Location: Cournna, Michigan

Karma: 0

Junior Member

Dave I have done all that you suggest and I have narrowed it down between
the solenoid and the ignition. Actually if ground the body of the starter
with jumper cables and +to + post I get nothing, with the + to the brass
post coming out the starter it spin good but no engagement of the solenoid,
with the + to solenoid it engages, so I have get the two together. Thank
to all who have responded. anything further is also appreciated. Thanks
again.

Don

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75-76 Glenbrook

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62305 is a reply to message #62274]

Thu, 29 October 2009 11:13

corunnadon

Messages: 18
Registered: February 2004
Location: Cournna, Michigan

Karma: 0

Junior Member

Roger G, that sounds about what I have gotten it down to, after all that I
have read in the past and is coming back and from those that have responded.
Thanks

Don

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75-76 Glenbrook

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62308 is a reply to message #62220]

Thu, 29 October 2009 11:31

RF_Burns

Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada

Karma: 3

Senior Member

Since the starter spins when you apply power to it the starter should be fine. It does not engage because the solenoid plunger pulls the starter gear into the flywheel gear. Applying power directly to the starter does not energize the solenoid so the gear stays retracted.

I am thinking there is something preventing the starter gear moving. This would make the solenoid "TICK" but nothing else. The gear must move out and engage the flywheel before the main contacts of the solenoid connect.

You will have to pull the starter and see if the the gear is free to move out to engage the flywheel. There might be gunk or rust preventing it from moving out all the way.

Just my opinion.

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62311 is a reply to message #62279]

Thu, 29 October 2009 11:44

corunnadon

Messages: 18
Registered: February 2004
Location: Cournna, Michigan

Karma: 0

Junior Member

Dave S

When I connect the battery I would get a loud clunk from the solenoid, I
believe that it is between the ignition and the solenoid. Still open to all
suggestions. Thanks all.

Don

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75-76 Glenbrook

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62319 is a reply to message #62220]

Thu, 29 October 2009 12:26

roy1

Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada

Karma: 6

Senior Member

When all else has failed and you suspect the starter is at fault.
I would pull it out again and with it on the ground connect a set of jumper cables from a good battery neg to the housing plus to the large terminal on the solenoid and a small jumper from the plus to the small terminal on the solenoid. it should pull the gear out and spin. Don't forget to put your foot on the starter to keep it from taking off.
Roy

Roy Keen Minden,NV 76 X Glenbrook

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62321 is a reply to message #62220]

Thu, 29 October 2009 12:34

RF_Burns

Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada

Karma: 3

Senior Member

I see you replaced the solenoid And the starter so I will assume the replacement starter was a rebuilt or a known working starter.

That leaves only something with the flywheel gear not letting the starter gear engage with it.. OR the engine is seized (not turning)

Did you try my headlight dimming trick?

IF the starter gear is engaging then the solenoid will close all the way and the starter will get full power... Hence then the headlights will dim ALOT... you can watch your dome light as well.

IF the lights do not DIM much, then the starter is not getting full battery power. Likely the starter gear is not fully engaging the flywheel gear and therefore the solenoid doe not pull in all the way to close the main contacts... therefore the starter does not get full power and the lights stay bright.

Did you check the flywheel gear when you were changing the starter? If there is a mashed or bent tooth or something preventing the starter gear from fully engaging.

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

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Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems [message #62384 is a reply to message #62311]

Thu, 29 October 2009 23:34

Rivers

Messages: 25
Registered: October 2009

Karma: 0

Junior Member

I don't know if its worth anything but while working on an upper ball joint
on the right front wheel I noticed the red battery cable from the battery to the
starter was frayed and bare about half way between the two,� all wires were
ok but no wire housing just the jacket pulled back. I could see no reason
including wire clamp for this to happen.
I never had any problem with it, it was just that way, since been fixed
Rivers

--- On Thu, 10/29/09, hartdna@chartermi.net <hartdna@chartermi.net> wrote:

From: hartdna@chartermi.net <hartdna@chartermi.net>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Starter Problems
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Thursday, October 29, 2009, 9:44 AM

Dave S

When I connect the battery I would get a loud clunk from the solenoid,� I
believe that it is between the ignition and the solenoid.� Still open to all
suggestions.� Thanks all.

Don

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