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Re: [GMCnet] Fw: 2/4 bagger [message #77171 is a reply to message #77027] Thu, 18 March 2010 22:27 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Jim Bounds is currently offline  Jim Bounds   United States
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma:
Senior Member
A friend called me today telling me about this thread, I have been very busy and have not had time to get up on the net.  I would have commented earlier so here goes--------

There is no bag war--- there is no comparison-- it is totally documented that the Harrison 4 bag system is not strong enough-- but even before that I can tell you not only first person but from customers of mine who were left out to dry when they complained about issues with the system.  You want to talk about this--- you got it buddy!  I have left this along for some time but there must be the truth plainly told here!

Yes, a person went to a Sunshine Statesmen rally and drove around the park on 4 wheels-- I not only was there but was the dealer who installed a blue million of the systems and was installing them when that was done-- looked very convincing too.  I sold even more.  I will tell you I have installed more of the Harrison 4 bag systems than I bet any single person including Mr. Harrison and everything was going fine until I drove a coach from Orlando to Jacksonville to get on a ship bound for Europe.  I had a tire blow out which damaged the air line on the bag with the blown tire.  I pulled into the rest area just south of Jacksonville-- shut off the valve to that bag and drove the coach on in to a buddy of mine who had a mechanical shop in Jacksonville some 25 miles.  I did not hit any bumps, drove under 50 MPH and parked the coach on a paved flat surface.   I then drove on home and the next day my friend installed a new bag, the spare tire and
fixed the air line that was damaged, he then drove the coach to the port and put the coach on the ship for transport.  6 weeks later I got a call from the new owner in England who said the vertical member was bent 10 mm.  The bag was rubbing on the structure and he was afraid to move the coach.  I immediatly called Leigh Harrison and told him about the pro blem, he told me there was no warranty in that the coach had been sold.  I told him hang the warranty, the system had failed!  Something had to be done.  He said there was no problem and there was nothing wrong with the system, something must have caused the failure.  I DROVE THE THING, THERE WAS NO DAMAGE TO THE SYSTEM! 

Then another system was sent to me to install on Nelson's coach.  Leigh said he had started powder coating the metal rather than the gold zinc.  I really liked the gold zinc but he said that costed too much.  Before we even got Nelson's system on the "power coating" was coming off and the metal was rusting.  That system is on his coach right now!  If that is powder coating I'll eat my hat!  I complained but he would not validate my complaint saying we must have damaged it.  NO, I DID NOT DAMAGE IT, THE THING RUSTED ON IT'S OWN!

I have a Harrison 4 bag on my coach "Larry" right now.  The plates on the vertical member that the air bags are mounted to are bent, they are NOT perpandicular to eachother!  I told Leigh about it and he had no responcse.  This is my coach, I look at it every day!  DO NOT TELL ME THAT SYSTEM IS STRONG ENOUGH-- IT IS NOT!

I implored him to investigate the problem with the system.  I told him these were not isolated issues, there are many-- he said I was nuts, that there was no problem.  He was wrong!  Since I had installed so many of the systems and still do feel having a seperate air bag for each wheel is a good idea, I sat down and listed all of the things I would change if I could build my own 4 bag system, at the end of each issue I will tell you how the Quad bag fixed the problem  Oh, and if you say I'm just saying this because I make the new Quad bag-- you are wrong, I helped Jim K. design the system, I got nothing from him to do it, get no override, commissions or have any partnership with him on the system.  I do have the pride that goes along with helping design it but thats it-- I do not own or get anything from the sale of them to others so stick that in your pipe!-- here is my list:

1.  prime problem is the structure is designed wrong and is made of too light a material.  You actually bend the single structure over the bogy pins to install the system, you have to to get it over the protruding pins!  With a single rod holding the 2 plates holding the bags apart, there is not enough support to keep the mounting plates parallel to each other.  The Quad bag is made of 3/8" steel not 1/4".  Both sides of the Harrison system weight 56 pounds in the single  box, I know because I shipped them.  The Quad bag system comes in 2 boxes, each box has a weight of 54 pounds each!  By the pound it is a better deal!  The mounting plates for the bags are 3/8" steel, double thick back to back bolted together-- ask any engineer and he will tell you this is a much more robust structure.

2.  The air lines to the bags are in the 1 inch gap between the bags, they have a 90 deg. press lock fitting.  Having the gap between the bags will not allow the coach to drop as much as if the bags were together and God help you when those press lock fittings leak-- and they usually did!  The Quad bag, having the mounting plates back to back not only allows the bags to drop the coach farther, because the air lines are on the outside, you can forget those press lock fittings, you can easily get to the fitting and wrench it down really well.  The number 1 place the Harrison system leaked were on those 2 fittings between the bags-- I know, I had to replace them over and over.  The leaking had nothing to do with the installation, all you did was cut the air line at a 90 degree and push them into the fitting,  even I could do that!

3.  The bags were too small and their rating was too low.  Checking the gauge on the manifold, it was not uncommon to see 135 PSI to get the coach to ride height--- we even started putting in new regulators to pump the available pressure to the system from the origional 120 PSI max to 145 to get the coach above ride height.   The bags are rated at 100 PSI max by Firestone!  YOU DO NOT DESIGN A DEVICE TO RUN ABOVE THE RATED VALUE OF THE COMPONENTS!  The Quad bag in the upper holes will bring a 26' coach to ride height at 70 PSI!  This is an absolute fact that if you want to pay for the lab this spec can be documented.  Ah, but even at that the bags in the Quad bag are larger diameter and will hold more PSI-- this is a fact!

4.  You had to pry the Harrison vertical member over the 2 bogy pins sticking out.  You had to because the member was a 1 piece construction and had to be stressed to fit into place.  The Quad bag is a 2 piece construction, fits over the pin easily then bolts together.  To remove a bag the 2 sections easily unbolt for access.  Being made of 3/8" steel, you could never pry apart the structure if it were a 1 piece construction-- it is that strong!

5.  I really liked the look of the 4 bagger in gold zinc.  Not only did it look great, it did not rust.  The Quad bag is gold zinc, thank you Jim K.

6.  It was always said "the 4 bag system made for a stiffer ride".  The reason for this was the higher bag pressure.  The tighter bags transferred more road vibration but I thought you had to have that to have the more precise, performance ride.  You had to put up with one to have the other.    The Quad bag having a taller structure allows for lower bag pressure so the ride is not "stiff".  You still get the control and performance the 4 seperate bags give you without the harsh, stiff ride and this is a fact!

7.  The Harrison 4 bag system puts a twist in the air bag.  Hold a straight edge from center to center of the swing arms and you will find the upright is not centered.    The Quad bags are centered on the vertical member.  They push straight on the arms.

8.  The Harrison system uses all push to lock fittings.  The Quad bag has fitting you tighten with a wrench, give me a fitting I can wrench down tight every time!

There are more but this post is already way too long.  I now install the Quad bag system, I have installed many-- did one this week, you can see it on my daily pose page.  They fit perfect, go in without a hitch and the fittings do not leak!  I know these work--- why--- because I install them all the time.  I have a Harrison 4 bag system on my coach--- why--- so I can show anyone who asks why the Quad bag is better.  Someday I will get rid of it but right now I feel it does the most good to show other people why they should not have the system on their coach.  Come by the shop any time, I have too much money into it to throw it away so I figure I'll get my moneys worth this way!  Do I feel bad talking this way about a product-- not in the least because I can prove it all.  Yes, I am mad as ______ about how I and my customers were treated and don't even get me started about the Electromotive direct port fuel injection systems that were sold that
even Electromotive and the dealer that made the harness said should have never been installed into a motorhome application.  The heat and water sensative CPU was placed inside of the engine compartment!  I was told they were the "latest and greatest" then I found out they were not only discontinued by the manufacturer with no tech support but could not be run sequential and because of the non sealed connectors should never have ben used in this application but hey-- thats another kettle of fish!

Lets keep it on the 4 bag system, the system that failed on me, failed on other people and are still being sold with exactly the same desing flaws!  Come by my shop any time, I will show you the problems--- and the solution.  Am I passionate about this--- you betcha-- I was left out to dry!  One of my customers has a comment on Mr. Harrisons site right now that was taken out of context, this person wrote to Mr. Harrison asking him to please take his name and the out of context comment off of his site-- to date it is still on the site.  I talked directly to Firestone about the comment that the Harrison system was designed in consort with Firestone engineers.  Firestone does not take any responsibility for the design, testing or comments about the system at all.  This was told to me by my Firestone rep, see I am a Firestone dealer and have been for some time!  It is said the Quad bag system is "overengineered"-- SO!  I would much rather be on the
overengineered side than the underengineered side as it has been proven the other system is!  All this I can prove so bring it on if you want to refute this!  I have been in this business for 14 years, in my own business for 12.  I have installed 4 air bag systems from the very beginning and I will tell you right here, right now-- the Quad bag system is the best I have seen, it answers all of my issues and now that there are no original air bags is the best suspension for your GMC and that is my personal opinion based on my personal experiences.

Sorry guys but I do not want ANYONE to misunderstand how I feel on this subject.  Contrasting views are welcome but you had better be able to document what you say--- I can!  So you lurkers take notice and you who may not like much the fact I speak my mind--- do not put your coach in harms way! 

JIM BOUNDS!!!!!!!



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