Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit
| Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367970] |
Sun, 12 December 2021 12:44  |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Guys,
In researching my recent installation issues with the Howell EFI, I found many who warned of mechanical gauges in the driving station. I thought I would share something which may be over looked.
Any pressure gauge is acceptable in the dash. If using a mechanical gauge in the dash you must simply install an isolator just outside the cockpit. This will allow you to use all styles and sizes of pressure gauges
The isolator is simply where the fuel stops at a diaphragm and a non-flammable fluid pick up. I prefer a silicone base hydraulic fluid. On one side of the diaphragm is fuel under pressure and the other side is a nonflammable fluid which transfers the pressure through the diaphragm to the pressure gauge. Any rupture in the gauge or line within the vehicle will only yield nonflammable fluid.
Not much advise, but I thought it might be something helpful for someone who likes to monitor fuel pressure on their EFI and thinks that an electrical sender is the only option.
Take care all,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| [GMCnet] Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367971 is a reply to message #367970] |
Sun, 12 December 2021 14:05  |
powwerjon
Messages: 849
Registered: March 2013
Karma: -2
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NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER RUN A MECHANICAL FUEL GAUGE INTO THE
COCKPIT OF YOUR COACH!!!!!!!
THAT IS THE SUREST WAY TO BURN YOUR COACH TO THE GROUND!!
I will stop shouting now! Who ever told you that is a FOOL! I have built
and raced performance cars since the middle 1960's. I can tell you from
past experience That a number of persons have lost their investment to a
fire. If you want to see the fuel pressure use and electric unit. In theh
earlier days we used to mount the mechanical gauge out on the cowling just
in front of the windshield and you would still have fires. Jim H what do
you think??
J.R. Wright
GMC Great Laker
GMCGL Tech Editor
GMC Eastern States
GMCMHI
TZE Zone Restorations
78 Buskirk Custom 29.5' Stretch
75 Avion (Under going Frame up Restoration)
On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 1:44 PM wrote:
> Guys,
>
> In researching my recent installation issues with the Howell EFI, I found
> many who warned of mechanical gauges in the driving station. I thought I
> would share something which may be over looked.
>
> Any pressure gauge is acceptable in the dash. If using a mechanical gauge
> in the dash you must simply install an isolator just outside the cockpit.
> This will allow you to use all styles and sizes of pressure gauges
>
> The isolator is simply where the fuel stops at a diaphragm and a
> non-flammable fluid pick up. I prefer a silicone base hydraulic fluid. On
> one side of
> the diaphragm is fuel under pressure and the other side is a nonflammable
> fluid which transfers the pressure through the diaphragm to the pressure
> gauge. Any rupture in the gauge or line within the vehicle will only yield
> nonflammable fluid.
>
> Not much advise, but I thought it might be something helpful for someone
> who likes to monitor fuel pressure on their EFI and thinks that an
> electrical
> sender is the only option.
>
> Take care all,
> Tom K.
> --
> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
> Kingsville, Maryland,
> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
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| [GMCnet] Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367972 is a reply to message #367970] |
Sun, 12 December 2021 14:21 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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I agree 100 %. Had a fuel fire in a race car once. That was plenty. Thank
God for fire suits, gauntlets, respirators, I only got some scorching above
my respirator, and just a bit on my wrist. Fire was out when the car came
to a stop.
Worst thing that can happen to a motor home, too. Really, do you need
to know that info badly enough to lose a coach over? When you are tuning
and setting up the fuel injection, hook up a temporary gage to verify what
you need to know, then remove it.
It is a really sad day when you come back to a burned coach and find
it all covered with dry chemical extinguisher chemicals and realize how
much of a challenge it will be to get back to where you started from. Makes
a grown man cry, for sure.
Gasoline fires are nothing to fool with. Please do not introduce
hazards where none existed previously.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 12:05 PM John Wright wrote:
> NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER RUN A MECHANICAL FUEL GAUGE INTO THE
> COCKPIT OF YOUR COACH!!!!!!!
>
> THAT IS THE SUREST WAY TO BURN YOUR COACH TO THE GROUND!!
>
> I will stop shouting now! Who ever told you that is a FOOL! I have built
> and raced performance cars since the middle 1960's. I can tell you from
> past experience That a number of persons have lost their investment to a
> fire. If you want to see the fuel pressure use and electric unit. In theh
> earlier days we used to mount the mechanical gauge out on the cowling just
> in front of the windshield and you would still have fires. Jim H what do
> you think??
>
> J.R. Wright
> GMC Great Laker
> GMCGL Tech Editor
> GMC Eastern States
> GMCMHI
> TZE Zone Restorations
> 78 Buskirk Custom 29.5' Stretch
> 75 Avion (Under going Frame up Restoration)
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 1:44 PM wrote:
>
>> Guys,
>>
>> In researching my recent installation issues with the Howell EFI, I found
>> many who warned of mechanical gauges in the driving station. I thought I
>> would share something which may be over looked.
>>
>> Any pressure gauge is acceptable in the dash. If using a mechanical gauge
>> in the dash you must simply install an isolator just outside the cockpit.
>> This will allow you to use all styles and sizes of pressure gauges
>>
>> The isolator is simply where the fuel stops at a diaphragm and a
>> non-flammable fluid pick up. I prefer a silicone base hydraulic fluid. On
>> one side of
>> the diaphragm is fuel under pressure and the other side is a nonflammable
>> fluid which transfers the pressure through the diaphragm to the pressure
>> gauge. Any rupture in the gauge or line within the vehicle will only
> yield
>> nonflammable fluid.
>>
>> Not much advise, but I thought it might be something helpful for someone
>> who likes to monitor fuel pressure on their EFI and thinks that an
>> electrical
>> sender is the only option.
>>
>> Take care all,
>> Tom K.
>> --
>> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
>> Kingsville, Maryland,
>> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
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| Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367973 is a reply to message #367970] |
Sun, 12 December 2021 15:59 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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J.R. and Jim,
With an isolator there is no fuel in the cockpit. From the isolator on to the gauge is antifreeze or silicone fluid. There was a time when fuel pressure gauges were only mounted on the hood. Those days have past.
I don't know how there can be a fire without flammable fluids. It might be worth reading up about fuel pressure isolators. This is the sole purpose they were developed.
Just a quick cut and past from the web:
"Mechanical is the best and most accurate. If installed correctly with a fuel pressure Isolator fuel will never enter passed the firewall.These isolators are designed for mounting of any mechanical pressure gauge inside your ride. They're rated at 200 psi working pressure with a maximum of 300 psi peak, and are compatible with gasoline, oil, and antifreeze. How it works. Fuel travels from your fuel rail to your isolator via a braided hose then the isolator transfers the pressure to your interior mounted guage via a nylon hose filled with antifreeze/water etc.. thus leaving the danger outside your driving compartment."
I think it may be beneficial to look at this technology.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
[Updated on: Sun, 12 December 2021 16:01] Report message to a moderator |
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| [GMCnet] Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367975 is a reply to message #367973] |
Sun, 12 December 2021 16:27 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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My fuel fire was caused from a fuel pressure regulator that failed, sprayed
fuel under pressure on a hot engine. Not fun when you are strapped in. Had
a good MANDATORY fuel shut off upstream from the pump. Saved my butt.
I agree that isolated gages are an improvement over live fuel ones.
But, every connection is a potential failure. If I had my 'druthers, I
would vote for the fewest distractions to the driver.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 1:59 PM wrote:
> J.R. and Jim,
>
> With an isolator there is no fuel in the cockpit. From the isolator on to
> the gauge is antifreeze or silicone fluid. There was a time when fuel
> pressure gauges were only mounted on the hood. Those days have past.
>
> I don't know how there can be a fire without flammable fluids. It might be
> worth reading up about fuel pressure isolators. This is the sole purpose
> they were developed.
>
>
> Just a quick cut and past from the web:
> "Mechanical is the best and most accurate. If installed correctly with a
> fuel pressure Isolator fuel will never enter passed the firewall.These
> isolators are designed for mounting of any mechanical pressure gauge
> inside your ride. They're rated at 200 psi working pressure with a maximum
> of 300
> psi peak, and are compatible with gasoline, oil, and antifreeze. How it
> works. Fuel travels from your fuel rail to your isolator via a braided hose
> then the isolator transfers the pressure to your interior mounted guage
> via a nylon hose filled with antifreeze/water etc.. thus leaving the danger
> outside your driving compartment."
>
> I think it may be beneficial to look at this technology.
> --
> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
> Kingsville, Maryland,
> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
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| [GMCnet] Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367978 is a reply to message #367975] |
Sun, 12 December 2021 16:51 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Local (OKC, OK) GMCer had similarly caused fire in
his GMC. Luckily went out before major damage.
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio - K2GKK
Since 30 Novemb'53
USAF and FAA, Ret'd
Member GMCMI and Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot com
wwww.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb
________________________________
From: James Hupy
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2021 16:27
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit
My fuel fire was caused from a fuel pressure regulator that failed, sprayed
fuel under pressure on a hot engine. Not fun when you are strapped in. Had
a good MANDATORY fuel shut off upstream from the pump. Saved my butt.
I agree that isolated gages are an improvement over live fuel ones.
But, every connection is a potential failure. If I had my 'druthers, I
would vote for the fewest distractions to the driver.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
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| Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367979 is a reply to message #367970] |
Sun, 12 December 2021 17:03 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Jim and Ken,
I agree that the fewer connections the better.
I am not sure that an electric sender is any safer then an isolator. The isolator does not carry current or flammable fluid and both the sender and isolator are inert going from the fuel line to the cab.
For sure having nothing is safer than either the sender or isolator. I like that I know immediately when a pump fails or is going to fail. Some pumps have a tendency to fluctuate prior to failure and that may be enough to get you to a safe location for a planned change out.
Very good points on all ends. For sure if you are going to have gauge have an isolator or sender.
Stay healthy,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367988 is a reply to message #367979] |
Sun, 12 December 2021 19:43 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
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Senior Member |
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You can wire an electrical fuel pressure gauge into one of the analog ports on the EBL and run datalogs to analyze it. Use WinLog-EBL to sound an audible alarm, run a separate datalog, and/or display a gauge for real time diagnostics. Unless you're driving or have a co-pilot/monitor of course.
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
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| Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367989 is a reply to message #367970] |
Sun, 12 December 2021 21:17 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Bill,
That is also another good solution for those who wish to monitor the fuel pressure. You would still have a sender or isolator.
Both the isolator and the sender have a diaphragm. It is just the isolator has no electric and there for no possibility of spark.
I have flown military and civilian aircraft, fixed wing and rotary wing, in all of them, including my current bush plane, I have and had a fuel pressure gauge factory installed and FAA approved.
It appears to be like anything else, personal preference. One must respect each persons beliefs.
Jim H. is correct in that removing the gauge from the equation moves the potential for failure to zero. Maybe in the air the engine is a little more important. LOL.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367991 is a reply to message #367990] |
Mon, 13 December 2021 00:41 |
mghamms
Messages: 466
Registered: March 2016
Location: Ware, Massachusetts
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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seems to me the gauge would have also go bad to be a problem.
Better chance af getting hit by lightning and going to heaven.
JohnL455 wrote on Sun, 12 December 2021 21:36What if the isolator diaphragm fails and it is sending fuel into the cockpit, but you don’t know it as gauge looks fine.
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
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| [GMCnet] Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367997 is a reply to message #367991] |
Mon, 13 December 2021 08:43 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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The point of the isolator is mostly to eliminate the fuel line into the cockpit. That fuel line, if most often the failure point IIRC, not the diaphragm., same issue with oil pressure
________________________________
From: Mike Hamm via Gmclist
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 12:41 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Mike Hamm
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit
seems to me the gauge would have also go bad to be a problem.
Better chance af getting hit by lightning and going to heaven.
JohnL455 wrote on Sun, 12 December 2021 21:36
> What if the isolator diaphragm fails and it is sending fuel into the cockpit, but you don’t know it as gauge looks fine.
--
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| [GMCnet] Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #367999 is a reply to message #367997] |
Mon, 13 December 2021 10:25 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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There are lot of good fuel pressure senders that are available and gauges
that have the smaller range that read well.
On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 6:47 AM Keith V wrote:
> The point of the isolator is mostly to eliminate the fuel line into the
> cockpit. That fuel line, if most often the failure point IIRC, not the
> diaphragm., same issue with oil pressure
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Hamm via Gmclist
> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 12:41 AM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Cc: Mike Hamm
> Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit
>
> seems to me the gauge would have also go bad to be a problem.
>
> Better chance af getting hit by lightning and going to heaven.
>
> JohnL455 wrote on Sun, 12 December 2021 21:36
>> What if the isolator diaphragm fails and it is sending fuel into the
> cockpit, but you don’t know it as gauge looks fine.
>
>
> --
> 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #368001 is a reply to message #367970] |
Mon, 13 December 2021 12:47 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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John brought up a good question for which I had no answer, so I called "AutoMeter" the manufacturer of the Isolator which I am using.
I spoke to a gentleman by the name Doug, and he stated that John is in fact correct in that if the diaphragm should suffer a tear or hole it is possible for fuel to make it to the antifreeze/silicone line and subsequently the gauge.
Beings that the diaphragm has equal pressure on both sides and the diaphragm has very little stress, this has not presented itself as a problem. Doug said that there is little worry of this happening. I asked him, is it possible that the operator would be un aware of the failure if it occurred and he said yes.
The diaphragm in an electric sender is generally pressed up against a spring of some sort an may have a little more pressure differential then that of the isolator. Also the sender failure also incorporates an electrical component.
This brings me back to Jim H. Do we really need the pressure gauge and the fact that not having one removes the possibility of failure.
In over 30 years of flying aircraft, all of which had fuel pressure gauges in the dash, I have never had a fuel pressure gauge failure/fuel leak.
At this point, I can not determine what the right answer is? I am back to respecting each persons personal decision.
Sorry, as this post may have been of no help. Just more information.
Take care and stay healthy,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
[Updated on: Mon, 13 December 2021 14:54] Report message to a moderator |
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| [GMCnet] Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #368013 is a reply to message #368001] |
Tue, 14 December 2021 00:36 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Agreed that aircraft are a whole different critter than a motorhome. Really
hard to just pull over to the side in flight. So the risk is justified by
the greater need for accurate information.
I read the book about the first aircraft to fly nonstop around the
world. A twin engine ultralight aircraft that was literally a flying fuel
tank. They had one fuel gage and a complicated number of tank switching
valves and pumps. They proved none too reliable in actual use, and were a
constant cause of worry to both Dick Rutan and Gena Yeager, the co-pilots.
Great book. Nothing to do with gmc's, I know, but the fuel gage in the
cockpit.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 9:44 PM wrote:
> John brought up a good question for which I had no answer, so I called
> "AutoMeter" the manufacturer of the Isolator which I am using.
>
> I spoke to a gentleman by the name, Doug and he stated that John is in
> fact correct in that if the diaphragm should suffer a tear or hole it is
> possible for fuel to make it to the antifreeze/silicone line and
> subsequently the gauge.
>
> Beings that the diaphragm has equal pressure on both sides and the
> diaphragm has very little stress, this has not presented itself as a
> problem. Doug
> said that there is little worry of this happening. I asked him, is it
> possible that the operator would be un aware of the failure if it occurred
> and
> he said yes.
>
> The diaphragm in an electric sender is generally pressed up against a
> spring of some sort an may have a little more pressure differential then
> that of
> the isolator. Also the sender failure also incorporates an electrical
> component.
>
> This brings me back to Jim H. Do we really need the pressure gauge and the
> fact that not having one removes the possibility failure.
>
> In over 30 years of flying aircraft, all of which had fuel pressure gauges
> in the dash, I have never had a fuel pressure gauge failure/fuel leak.
>
> At this point, I can not determine what the right answer is? I am back to
> respecting each persons personal decision.
>
> Sorry, as this post may have been of no help. Just more information.
>
> Take care and stay healthy,
> Tom K.
> --
> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
> Kingsville, Maryland,
> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: Mechanical Fuel Pressure Gauges are OK in the Cockpit [message #368021 is a reply to message #367970] |
Tue, 14 December 2021 10:04 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
I have 4 fuel tanks on my aircraft and can stay aloft for 8 hours. It really isn't intended that you stay aloft, it's just that, as a bush plane it may be 8 hours between refueling points. Fuel tank management can be a big deal and I have lost my engine because I ran a tank dry at 7,000 ft. over Augusta Ga.
This morning I called a good friend Carlo, who is a head Mechanic at the Airplane Owners and Pilot Assoc. (AOPA) and asked him what his take on this situation was and what are his thoughts. He is extremely experienced and has built many aircraft. He said that yes, direct plumbing to the gauge, Isolators and Senders are all used. He mentioned some device that limits the amount of fuel that can move forward in the event of a diaphragm failure with an isolator.
He further told me that every one building new aircraft are all going to Electric sending units and gauges. The accuracy has improved as well as safety.
To change an aircraft design requires a lot of paper work (Form 337, STC and the like) Not so with a motorhome. With that in mind I will be adopting Ken H's philosophy of electric Sender and Gauge. I will pull the isolator and switch to electric a little later in the build. We only have one door on our motorhomes and our families are often on board. The only next best choice is to pull pressure gauges totally.
Thanks all for all the input.
Take care,
Tom K.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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