Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Brake Project - advice needed (Can't get this across the goal line)
| Brake Project - advice needed [message #355654] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 21:41  |
jcurran
Messages: 52
Registered: May 2009
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Hi Folks,
I replaced my brake lines last year and have bled the system at least 3 different times and adjusted the rear brakes over and over. I just don't have the same braking that I did before replacing the lines.
Today, right after taking the coach for a spin, I measured temperatures of the disks and drums all around and I have some strange results but maybe there is a clue in here?
Front driver & passenger: 185 , 186 (degrees F)
Driver mid & rear: 220, 172
Passenger mid & rear: 95, 93 (drums just warm to the touch)
Air temp was about 65 F today.
Do I still have air in the system?
Could the passenger side cylinders be frozen?
Do I have the driver side drum brakes adjusted too tight?
And by the way, should I fiddle with the combination valve while bleeding? (I have not)
Thanks in advance for any insight.
Jim
Jim Curran
1976 Palm Beach
Alexandria, OH
[Updated on: Sat, 13 June 2020 22:39] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Project - advice needed [message #355657 is a reply to message #355654] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 22:03  |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Are both side of rear warm, not hot.
Rear lines are long so you need to consider that.
On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:41 PM Jim Curran via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> I replaced my brake lines last year and have bled the system at least 3
> different times and adjusted the rear brakes over and over. I just don't
> have
> the same braking that I did before replacing the lines.
>
> Today, right after taking the coach for a spin, I measured temperatures of
> the disks and drums all around and I have some strange results but maybe
> there is a clue in here?
>
> Front driver & passenger: 185 , 186 (degrees F)
> Driver mid & rear: 220, 172
> Passenger mid & rear: 95, 95 (drums just warm to the touch)
>
> Air temp was about 65 F today.
>
> Do I still have air in the system?
> Could the passenger side calipers be frozen?
> Do I have the driver side drum brakes adjusted too tight?
> And by the way, should I fiddle with the combination valve while bleeding?
> (I have not)
>
> Thanks in advance for any insight.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Curran
> 1976 Palm Beach
> Alexandria, OH
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Project - advice needed [message #355660 is a reply to message #355657] |
Sat, 13 June 2020 23:27 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
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The hot brakes are adjusted too tight or the wheel cylinders are frozen, or just stuck enough in corrosion (that they just got pushed into when you bled them and got any air out) to be able to overcome the return springs.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Project - advice needed [message #355664 is a reply to message #355660] |
Sun, 14 June 2020 06:30 |
6cuda6
Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019
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My first thought as well....sometimes doing a good thing makes other stuff worse
Bullitthead wrote on Sun, 14 June 2020 00:27The hot brakes are adjusted too tight or the wheel cylinders are frozen, or just stuck enough in corrosion (that they just got pushed into when you bled them and got any air out) to be able to overcome the return springs.
Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
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| Re: Brake Project - advice needed [message #355666 is a reply to message #355654] |
Sun, 14 June 2020 06:50 |
Tilerpep
Messages: 404
Registered: June 2013
Location: Raleigh, NC
Karma: 7
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I see in your data a big difference between sides - which leads me to think passenger rear line still has air, and both rear sets may not be adjusted properly.
When I replaced my metal lines, I tried my usual gravity bleed and it did not work AT ALL to the rear. I had to use my Harbor Freight vacuum bleeder to get the lines to wet. One line (I don't remember which one) I had to undo at the master and use the vacuum sucker at the wheel end to draw a little bit of fluid that had started from gravity and vacuum previous attempts. Once this mostly air attempt had moved some fluid through, I reattached line at MC and used vacuum to draw fluid from master cylinder until some consistent flow appears at caliper - and then I did gravity again. (Edit: don't forget to depress pin on combo valve as per factory manual when bleeding)
Once the lines got wet, I returned to gravity bleed process. Put clear hose on one nipple, loop it up and over something higher than nipple to watch flow of any bubbles, and down into a container/catchment. Open the nipple and wait. It might take an hour per caliper, sometimes longer, to move a few master cylinders worth of fluid through each rear caliper. I do all six wheels this way, and then re-do the four rears. If you let the master cylinder got too low on fluid, you have to start over. Just because it flows fluid with no bubbles, you are not done until you know a perfect column of fluid from MC to caliper is present... my estimation is that you have to refill MC at least twice when draining the first passenger side caliper, and then another full MC to second passenger caliper to even have a reasonable expectation of a complete hydraulic column. Then another full MC to driver rear, another full to driver front. It takes less to fill front lines because shorter.
As for adjustments, search this forum and re-read manual for those rear drums. Looking for initial settings and parking brake settings. You say you replaced lines, but you did not mention replacing shoes/pads or hardware - anything or everything new in there?
Keep in mind running temp of fronts and rear won't be comparable because fronts do more work than rear, and discs drag different than drum. More informative is side to side in this case.
And, just for kicks, you can repeat your experiment after you re-bleed and check hardware on everything by finding a good long (like 5 miles or more) stretch where you need no brakes and can come to stop using very little brake and then take all six wheel temps. Take as many points per wheel as you can to compare (laser gun access is different with different style wheels) such as actual front rotor, front center bearing nut, rear drum, rear center, etc. This test gives you an idea if anything is dragging. Repeat again with driving and stopping hard for 10-15 minutes a few times (stop and go) and see what you get then to see if temps are even when working hard. The first unloaded run can be useful also to find bearing heat if there is problem, but that is information you need also, so go for it. Write your temps down for the experimental runs. I repeat this temp walk around on trips for a health checkup - stop to get gas I head first to an empty area and test wheel/tire/bearing/brake temps. Stretch, hit the john, and then get gas. Takes 3 minutes to check temps once you have a laser temp gun and a routine.
JWIWD
1975 Glenbrook, 1978 Royale rear bath
Raleigh, NC
[Updated on: Sun, 14 June 2020 10:02] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Brake Project - advice needed [message #355667 is a reply to message #355666] |
Sun, 14 June 2020 08:02 |
jcurran
Messages: 52
Registered: May 2009
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Thanks for the great advice. I'll get more brake fluid and a lot more patience.
You didn't mention the combination valve so I assume I can leave it alone.
Thanks!
Jim
Jim Curran
1976 Palm Beach
Alexandria, OH
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| Re: Brake Project - advice needed [message #355671 is a reply to message #355667] |
Sun, 14 June 2020 10:00 |
Tilerpep
Messages: 404
Registered: June 2013
Location: Raleigh, NC
Karma: 7
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I have seen mixed reviews on replacing the combo valve as an OEM quality is not widely available...my solution has been to follow the very important but often overlooked process in the factory manual that you have to recess the pin to properly bleed the system. I use a zip tie and click it down to depress the little button. In fact, once set, I leave the zip tie hanging there permanently and just slip it on and off as needed.
If you are not familiar with the process, a pressure bleeder seems to be the favorite on the forums, but I don't have one.
1975 Glenbrook, 1978 Royale rear bath
Raleigh, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Project - advice needed [message #355672 is a reply to message #355667] |
Sun, 14 June 2020 09:44 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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The distribution valve is a separation device between the front disc brake
system, and the rear drum brake system. Another of it's functions is to
serve as a warning device should there be a great difference in pressure
between those two systems.
Sounds to me like you still have air in the rear s and stem. They can
be a real bit## to expel all the air due to the siamese lines between the
rear/rear and the intermediate/rear brakes. Often, all you accomplish by
most pump n hold attempts is to chase the air bubbles back and forth in
those siamese lines. Takes quite a bit of fluid sometimes, especially when
lines have been open for a while, or have been replaced like yours were.
Keep on bleeding them. I prefer pressure bleeding, but you use whatever
floats yer boat. Be patient.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 6:03 AM Jim Curran via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Thanks for the great advice. I'll get more brake fluid and a lot more
> patience.
>
> You didn't mention the combination valve so I assume I can leave it alone.
>
> Thanks!
> Jim
>
>
> --
> Jim Curran
> 1976 Palm Beach
> Alexandria, OH
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: Brake Project - advice needed [message #355698 is a reply to message #355654] |
Mon, 15 June 2020 05:59 |
6cuda6
Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019
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When i run into possible brake bleeding issues or i think the pedal just isn't right i will bleed the brakes in different patterns, i use a catch bottle and i'm careful as to how much i open the bleeder [open it to much and you can suck air back in during pumping]......i always start with the furthest away from the master cylinder.....so right rear, then left rear, right center, left center, right front, left front with catch bottle on and pumping by hand.
Then i will go back to the rear but this time center right, center left, right rear, left rear, right front, left front....again pumping by hand with a catch bottle.
Then left rear, left center, right rear, right center, right front, left front...this time gravity bleed but with catch bottle.
I have learnt over the years that a catch bottle makes it easier if you keep the hose elevated above the drum height that way air bubbles rise out of the fluid.....if you bleed by hand with a helper pumping from the cockpit always keep your a finger or thumb on the bleeder opening anytime the bleeder is open, yes it can make the fluid spray a bit but it keeps air from being sucked in on the return stroke of the pedal.
A bleeder ball, vacuum bleeder or manual all work you just need to use what you have and you may have to repeat it several times and its always a good idea, in my opinion to make sure the brakes actually apply/release by turning the drum/rotor by hand with brakes applied and then released to make sure the cylinders/calipers actually work. JMHO.
Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Project - advice needed [message #355704 is a reply to message #355698] |
Mon, 15 June 2020 08:22 |
Emery Stora
Messages: 959
Registered: January 2011
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If you really want to go from the farthest first you should go right rear, right center, left rear, left center, right front, left front.
The two right rear brakes are fed from the same line going across the frame.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick CO
> On Jun 15, 2020, at 5:00 AM, 6cuda6--- via Gmclist wrote:
>
> When i run into possible brake bleeding issues or i think the pedal just isn't right i will bleed the brakes in different patterns, i use a catch
> bottle and i'm careful as to how much i open the bleeder [open it to much and you can suck air back in during pumping]......i always start with the
> furthest away from the master cylinder.....so right rear, then left rear, right center, left center, right front, left front with catch bottle on and
> pumping by hand.
>
> Then i will go back to the rear but this time center right, center left, right rear, left rear, right front, left front....again pumping by hand with
> a catch bottle.
>
> Then left rear, left center, right rear, right center, right front, left front...this time gravity bleed but with catch bottle.
>
> I have learnt over the years that a catch bottle makes it easier if you keep the hose elevated above the drum height that way air bubbles rise out of
> the fluid.....if you bleed by hand with a helper pumping from the cockpit always keep your a finger or thumb on the bleeder opening anytime the
> bleeder is open, yes it can make the fluid spray a bit but it keeps air from being sucked in on the return stroke of the pedal.
>
> A bleeder ball, vacuum bleeder or manual all work you just need to use what you have and you may have to repeat it several times and its always a good
> idea, in my opinion to make sure the brakes actually apply/release by turning the drum/rotor by hand with brakes applied and then released to make
> sure the cylinders/calipers actually work. JMHO.
> --
> Rich Mondor,
>
> Brockville, ON
>
> 77 Hughes 2600
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Project - advice needed [message #355708 is a reply to message #355704] |
Mon, 15 June 2020 09:49 |
6cuda6
Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019
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Yup agreed...thats why i always start with that as stated...then from their i'll modify it a bit just in case any air gets trapped in different places in the rear T lines, cylinders etc....
Emery Stora wrote on Mon, 15 June 2020 09:22If you really want to go from the farthest first you should go right rear, right center, left rear, left center, right front, left front.
The two right rear brakes are fed from the same line going across the frame.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick CO
> On Jun 15, 2020, at 5:00 AM, 6cuda6--- via Gmclist wrote:
>
> When i run into possible brake bleeding issues or i think the pedal just isn't right i will bleed the brakes in different patterns, i use a catch
> bottle and i'm careful as to how much i open the bleeder [open it to much and you can suck air back in during pumping]......i always start with the
> furthest away from the master cylinder.....so right rear, then left rear, right center, left center, right front, left front with catch bottle on and
> pumping by hand.
>
> Then i will go back to the rear but this time center right, center left, right rear, left rear, right front, left front....again pumping by hand with
> a catch bottle.
>
> Then left rear, left center, right rear, right center, right front, left front...this time gravity bleed but with catch bottle.
>
> I have learnt over the years that a catch bottle makes it easier if you keep the hose elevated above the drum height that way air bubbles rise out of
> the fluid.....if you bleed by hand with a helper pumping from the cockpit always keep your a finger or thumb on the bleeder opening anytime the
> bleeder is open, yes it can make the fluid spray a bit but it keeps air from being sucked in on the return stroke of the pedal.
>
> A bleeder ball, vacuum bleeder or manual all work you just need to use what you have and you may have to repeat it several times and its always a good
> idea, in my opinion to make sure the brakes actually apply/release by turning the drum/rotor by hand with brakes applied and then released to make
> sure the cylinders/calipers actually work. JMHO.
> --
> Rich Mondor,
>
> Brockville, ON
>
> 77 Hughes 2600
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
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| Re: Brake Project - advice needed [message #355716 is a reply to message #355654] |
Mon, 15 June 2020 11:44 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Jim-
These GMC's will stop. I know this because of all the stuff I had fly forward when I slammed the brakes on yesterday when I thought I was missing a turn....
I have to admit- I now use Jim Hupy's brake bleeder: http://www.gmcmotorhomemarketplace.com/jhupy/
it has never failed me yet... if it does not easily bleed the brakes quickly, you have other issued to deal with, such as bad lines, bad master cylinder or calipers or cylinders. I just recently had a coach that would see no fluid flow from the hupy pressure bleeder, but easily bled when you did the old school 2 person step on the brake and time the bleeding. a few hours of pissing around with that, it just would not want to stop.
tosses a new set of hoses/calipers and a proportioning valve, a 10 minutes brake bleed with the bleeder told me things were improved as fluid was flowing as it should. 5 minutes of that is hooking up and removing the brake bleeding plate.
I have done this well over a dozen times now, and that pressure bleeding method has been fool proof in making sure you are not dealing with air in the system.
With that said, I also never do anything with the valve other then replace it when it is questionable. on my coach, the questionable valve for sure was a fix of having bad brakes after all other parts were new. did not have a soft pedal, just took way too much effort to stop once the peddle bottomed out.
and also for adjusting the brakes, it really needs to be done with wheel removed. I have had good success in adjusting them up to point of stopping the drums, then backing off so you can spin them. I like to do that as a last step, because I will also press the pedal a little bit as to make sure the brake pads seat/center a bit. Trying to adjust the brakes up with the tires on, works, but the leverage the tire has on the drum can really throw you off on where they need to be set at when you spin them.
left compared to right side should be near the same temps after dropping. I will see varied temps a little mid axle as compared to rear axle, with my mid reading a little higher.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: Brake Project - advice needed [message #355733 is a reply to message #355654] |
Mon, 15 June 2020 21:30 |
Rick Staples
Messages: 126
Registered: May 2014
Location: Johnstown, Colorado, USA
Karma: -1
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Jim,
Are you SURE the rear brakes are adjusted properly? Before redoing the bleeding process, I would carefully adjust the rear brakes. STEP ONE is to be certain the parking brake cables are completely slack and the parking brake lever at each wheel is at rest back against the shoe. (It appears from your description that you have drum brakes. No problem with that.)
STEP TWO is to adjust the shoes, snugging up until you cannot turn the drum in either direction. Turn it both ways as you tighten the brakes to be sure everything is centered. Then back off until the drum turns more or less freely, again turning it both ways. (If your drums are not perfectly round and concentric with the hub, and your shoes either worn in or arc ground, you may not be able to eliminate all drag. My NEW drums weren't perfectly round/concentric.)
STEP THREE: Only now should you try and adjust the parking brakes. Again, the cables must move freely and release ALL tension when off. If this is not possible, leave 'em loose for now and proceed with bleeding as others have described. Replace cables as soon as you can. (I believe Jim K carries them.)
STEP FOUR: After bleeding each wheel, have your helper (or a big screwdriver against the driver's seat) apply the brakes, and be sure that wheel locks up. Then release the brakes and be sure that wheel again turns freely. If either test fails, you probably have a sticking wheel cylinder, caliper piston, or caliper bushings/pins.
If all else fails and the pedal is still spongy or low, I'd try tightening all 4 rear brake adjusters until the wheels lock up, and then try the pedal. If it is STILL spongy, then you have more air OR possibly bad flex hoses. (They CAN get soft and swell under pressure.)
My .02. , HTH
Rick Staples
Rick Staples, '75 Eleganza, Johnstown, CO
"Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the Wise to the Wise, and all paths may run ill." -Tolkien
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Project - advice needed [message #355736 is a reply to message #355733] |
Mon, 15 June 2020 22:39 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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Got to have concentric brake drums, good return springs, and wheel
cylinders that work as they should. No drag. E brake cables must release
completely. Then, jack up the rear of the coach and remove the wheels and
tires.
Then, and only then can you proceed with brake adjustment. Adjust the
star wheels until the drums will no longer turn, AND the star wheels will
turn no further. Then, back off the star wheels 5 clicks at a time until
the drum will turn. Then, back off 5 clicks until slight drag can be felt
on the drum. If it free spins, that is too loose. Do all 4 drums this way.
Then check your pedal with engine running. You should have a firm pedal. If
it is spongy, go back and bleed the lines until this procedure gives you a
firm pedal. Remember, the brake drums expand away from the shoes when at
operating temperatures.
These coaches will stop well if the brakes work properly. OP
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 7:31 PM Richard H Staples via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Jim,
> Are you SURE the rear brakes are adjusted properly? Before redoing the
> bleeding process, I would carefully adjust the rear brakes. STEP ONE is to
> be certain the parking brake cables are completely slack and the parking
> brake lever at each wheel is at rest back against the shoe. (It appears
> from
> your description that you have drum brakes. No problem with that.)
>
> STEP TWO is to adjust the shoes, snugging up until you cannot turn the
> drum in either direction. Turn it both ways as you tighten the brakes to be
> sure everything is centered. Then back off until the drum turns more or
> less freely, again turning it both ways. (If your drums are not perfectly
> round and concentric with the hub, and your shoes either worn in or arc
> ground, you may not be able to eliminate all drag. My NEW drums weren't
> perfectly round/concentric.)
>
> STEP THREE: Only now should you try and adjust the parking brakes.
> Again, the cables must move freely and release ALL tension when off. If
> this is
> not possible, leave 'em loose for now and proceed with bleeding as others
> have described. Replace cables as soon as you can. (I believe Jim K
> carries them.)
>
> STEP FOUR: After bleeding each wheel, have your helper (or a big
> screwdriver against the driver's seat) apply the brakes, and be sure that
> wheel
> locks up. Then release the brakes and be sure that wheel again turns
> freely. If either test fails, you probably have a sticking wheel cylinder,
> caliper piston, or caliper bushings/pins.
>
> If all else fails and the pedal is still spongy or low, I'd try
> tightening all 4 rear brake adjusters until the wheels lock up, and then
> try the
> pedal. If it is STILL spongy, then you have more air OR possibly bad flex
> hoses. (They CAN get soft and swell under pressure.)
>
> My .02. , HTH
> Rick Staples
> --
> Rick Staples, '75 Eleganza, Johnstown, CO
>
> "Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the Wise to the Wise, and all paths
> may run ill." -Tolkien
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: Brake Project - advice needed [message #355747 is a reply to message #355654] |
Tue, 16 June 2020 07:09 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
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I get slow flow when I bleed the back. Gushes out of the calipers in front. The back brakes are all new, as is the (chinese) valve. Maybe the valve is the problem? Back brakes behave like there's still air in them...
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Project - advice needed [message #355751 is a reply to message #355747] |
Tue, 16 June 2020 07:43 |
Dolph Santorine
Messages: 1236
Registered: April 2011
Location: Wheeling, WV
Karma: -41
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If you have time when bleeding the brakes, there is this thing called “gravity”
It’s not just a good idea - - - it’ the law!
Seriously, with a gravity the challenge is keeping the master cylinder reservoir full.
Dolph
DE AD0LF
Wheeling, West Virginia
1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission
“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress”
|[ ]~~~[][ ][] \
"--OO--[]---O-"
> On Jun 16, 2020, at 8:09 AM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist wrote:
>
> I get slow flow when I bleed the back. Gushes out of the calipers in front. The back brakes are all new, as is the (chinese) valve. Maybe the valve
> is the problem? Back brakes behave like there's still air in them...
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake Project - advice needed [message #355762 is a reply to message #355751] |
Tue, 16 June 2020 10:27 |
powwerjon
Messages: 849
Registered: March 2013
Karma: -2
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Senior Member |
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If you have drums in the back then forget what I said, but for those of you that do it is relevant.
JR Wright
> On Jun 16, 2020, at 8:43 AM, Dolph Santorine via Gmclist wrote:
>
> If you have time when bleeding the brakes, there is this thing called “gravity”
>
> It’s not just a good idea - - - it’ the law!
>
> Seriously, with a gravity the challenge is keeping the master cylinder reservoir full.
>
> Dolph
>
> DE AD0LF
>
> Wheeling, West Virginia
>
> 1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
> Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission
>
> “The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress”
>
> |[ ]~~~[][ ][] \
> "--OO--[]---O-"
>
>> On Jun 16, 2020, at 8:09 AM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist wrote:
>>
>> I get slow flow when I bleed the back. Gushes out of the calipers in front. The back brakes are all new, as is the (chinese) valve. Maybe the valve
>> is the problem? Back brakes behave like there's still air in them...
>>
>> --johnny
>> --
>> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>> Braselton, Ga.
>> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
>>
>>
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