Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC!
| Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351815] |
Sat, 01 February 2020 08:59  |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
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We recently bought a new Dodge Grand Caravan. It has 17" wheels and I noticed the brake disks pretty much filled the entire wheel space. So I looked up the disk size and they are 13" disks with dual piston calipers all-round. It doesn't list the new disk thickness, but the discard thickness is just over an inch and they weigh 22lbs each. Pretty beefy brakes for a 3,800lb vehicle and yes they worked pretty good in the mountains in Mexico last week!
The GMC has 11" front disks... the larger the disk the more mechanical advantage the brakes have and the more swept disk area per revolution. The one-ton front end has 12.5" front disks.
Just an observation while sipping a margarita!
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351816 is a reply to message #351815] |
Sat, 01 February 2020 09:20  |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Just put new pads on my '11 T & C. Big disks, single piston calipers. Wonder when they went to dual piston - and why. The singles have enough brakiung power to light up the anti-skid.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351817 is a reply to message #351815] |
Sat, 01 February 2020 09:11 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
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Engineering specs that ASME has adopted possibly has been moved up.
Keep in mind most do not drive the MH aggressively and we do have 6 brakes.
On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 7:00 AM Bruce Hislop via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> We recently bought a new Dodge Grand Caravan. It has 17" wheels and I
> noticed the brake disks pretty much filled the entire wheel space. So I
> looked
> up the disk size and they are 13" disks with dual piston calipers
> all-round. It doesn't list the new disk thickness, but the discard
> thickness is
> just over an inch and they weigh 22lbs each. Pretty beefy brakes for a
> 3,800lb vehicle and yes they worked pretty good in the mountains in Mexico
> last week!
>
> The GMC has 11" front disks... the larger the disk the more mechanical
> advantage the brakes have and the more swept disk area per revolution. The
> one-ton front end has 12.5" front disks.
>
> Just an observation while sipping a margarita!
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop
> ON Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351822 is a reply to message #351815] |
Sat, 01 February 2020 11:12 |
bobby5832708
Messages: 237
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winter Springs FL
Karma: 3
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Bruce,
I noticed basically the same thing regarding the brake sizes of my various vehicles. The GMC is the largest and heaviest vehicle and has the smallest brakes.
I first thought about the brake sizes when a few years back I was changing the pads on my 2005 Ford Crown Vic. That car used a dual piston caliper, pads, and rotors that are substantially larger than that on my GMC. I wondered why my car had noticeably larger brakes than my motorhome did. Maybe it was because the Ford was an ex-cop-car, but I found that all CV-GrandMarq-Town Car brakes of that generation are the same size.
Then a couple of years ago I bought a 2016 Dodge Grand Caravan from Hertz and noticed, like you did, that it had dual piston calipers and brake rotors and pads that are substantially larger than the GMC's. No matter how much stuff I load the van up with, braking is not an issue. I would love to be able to easily transplant the Dodge or Ford brakes onto my GMC.
Johnny,
On the Mopar minivan I think the larger brakes were phased in during 2012 and fully in place for the 2013 model year. I get most of the van info from the website www.chryslerminivan.net . I could be wrong on the year, the real way to tell if a van has the larger brakes is if it has 17" wheels. Also, the dual piston front caliper is really easy to see between the wheel spokes.
Just my opinion and observations!
Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351823 is a reply to message #351815] |
Sat, 01 February 2020 11:16 |
6cuda6
Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019
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I dont think we lack braking power, although i will update to disc at one point.....i think we lack tire contact surface area effective enough for good braking hence the rear suspension bar systems that have been well designed to help.
Most modern cars/trucks have wider tires/wheels (frig the wheels on my VW Golf Sportwagen are bigger) than our GMC's so until someone comes up with lets say a 265 55 18 or something like that (plus 2 fitment would be 245 55 r18 actually) we wont see a real improvement.....JMHO
Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
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| Re: Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351826 is a reply to message #351815] |
Sat, 01 February 2020 14:50 |
78 Barbi
Messages: 80
Registered: August 2004
Location: Tiverton, Ontario , Canad...
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Mark Series Lincolns of the same era as our GMC's - Frank Cannon's Lincoln
Interesting trivia about Frank's Mark series Lincolns, from 1975 onward ( just prior to the show ending ) the Mark series had 4 wheel discs, total braking force for the approx 5,000 lb. auto was 9,816 lbs of brake force, at the same time our GMC with OEM brakes had approx. 6,900 lbs. braking force according to Frank Condos, Manny's calipers & P-30 master cyl. yielded about 7,500 lbs. braking force BUT we are talking about a 11,700 lb. vehicle so when folks claim that the OEM GMC brakes are fine , it might leave one with a twinge of doubt ? ( LOL )
'Franks, Mark series Lincoln with 11.8" front rotors & 3.11" calipers AND 11.5" rear rotors & 2.6" PB calipers plus 1100 psi hydro boost!'
Albert B.
78 Barbi
The 23 foot Birchaven
[Updated on: Sat, 01 February 2020 14:57] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351827 is a reply to message #351815] |
Sat, 01 February 2020 15:34 |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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Rich,
Those who have one-ton front ends immediately notice improved braking due to the 12.5" vs 11" front brake rotors. If the tires were losing traction, then the wheels would be easy to lock-up with the OEM brakes.
The back wheels lock-up easy because the brake torque on the rear bogie unloads weight off the rear wheels.
Just this farm-boy shade-tree mechanic way of seeing things.
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
[Updated on: Sat, 01 February 2020 15:34] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351829 is a reply to message #351815] |
Sat, 01 February 2020 15:45 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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quick n dirty test. If the fitted brakes on a vehicle will skid the <in this case and most> front wheels or light the antiskid if fitted, it has all the brakies it can use. This doesn't say the brakes are the best - they might be quite hard to hold on the threshold of a skid which is where you want them for best stopping power - it just says the system has the power to stop the wheels with the existing load and tire.
Remember, you're dissipating a hell of a lot of energy as heat when you put on brakes on anything. Bigger discs should dissipate it more better.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351833 is a reply to message #351827] |
Sat, 01 February 2020 16:47 |
6cuda6
Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019
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Have to remember were your mass is, which in our case is in the front and shifting forward as the nose dives planting the front tires to the ground....the bigger/wider tire will take that load better. Now the reason you see better braking by going to the 1 ton is 2 fold.....your able to shift that load faster and you probably upgraded the tortion bars as well making the front end a bit stiffer (if you didnt it doesnt matter but it would very much make those brakes even better).
Now if you took your braking loads to max threshold everytime....so on the brink of lock up you would see that your stopping distance would not really have improved over stock only because you havent increased the surface contact of the tire that actually does the other work.....so if you increased the contact patch, increased the anti dive rating and increased brake size you would see stellar results....
As for the back end...as the nose goes down well the rear goes up and unloads but the boggie arrangement makes it so the front boggie is now loaded as well which in turn pushes the back boggie to level off the rear to basically normal ride condition ....because of the airbag tying the 2 bogies together that means the front bogie technically is in the normal road contact position, therefore both rear bogie wheel do exactly the same braking as if the coach was in a level position so the tires lock up.....this is why the transfer bars work so well because as the brakes load up it forces the suspension down....the same happens with the quad bag setup (as it loads under braking its like an imdepenedent axle and is forced to push against the braking action.)
In all my years road racing motorcycles proffesionaly the limiting factor was never the brake caliper size, the rotor size, brake power etc....it was always tire width and contact patch.
RF_Burns wrote on Sat, 01 February 2020 16:34Rich,
Those who have one-ton front ends immediately notice improved braking due to the 12.5" vs 11" front brake rotors. If the tires were losing traction, then the wheels would be easy to lock-up with the OEM brakes.
The back wheels lock-up easy because the brake torque on the rear bogie unloads weight off the rear wheels.
Just this farm-boy shade-tree mechanic way of seeing things.
Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
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| Re: Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351848 is a reply to message #351847] |
Sun, 02 February 2020 14:26 |
6cuda6
Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019
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Ill never disagree with you about that and agree the brakes can be greatly improved to meet todays driving environment.
RF_Burns wrote on Sun, 02 February 2020 14:36Rich... its when you come over the brow of a hill at 90Km/hr and there is a traffic light just down hill. With only about 5 seconds of yellow light to come to a full stop, its a real pucker moment with the OEM GMC brakes. I have a one-ton front end and its larger disks have eliminated much of that "pucker factor".
Read Albert's specs on the OEM brakes and you will see they were not much better than a car's.
Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351849 is a reply to message #351847] |
Sun, 02 February 2020 14:48 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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When the GMC was made, all vehicles pretty much stopped at the same rate of
deceleration.
Times they have changed. Cars stop quite well today. They have bigger,
more efficient braking systems, anti-lockup technology, etc.
But the GMC is still same old, same old. Good enough back in the days
it was designed and manufactured.
It behooves us to try to improve the braking system in our coaches to
try to even the score. Hard to do. Weight is a huge factor. All that mass
has to be overcome by braking energy. Least we can do is keep all 6 tires
planted firmly on the pavement so the brakes we do have can do their job.
So, the reaction arm brakes are a giant leap forward. So are 11" brake
rotors on the front wheels, along with improved calipers. Different sized
hydraulic cylinders on the rear bogies, vs. the front bogies help prevent
rear-seat wheel lockup. Metallic and ceramic brake linings help some. 6
wheel discs help some, too.
The rest is up to the driver of the coach. Tailgating is a huge NO-NO
in vehicles of this weight. Eyes down the road ALL THE TIME you are moving
is absolutely essential to avoiding rear end collisions.
I won't go into distractions like additional gages that scream at you
to look at them instead of the road, or another of my pet peeves, Cruise
control. Driving too long lulls us into complacency, kinda dream state. Be
safe out there, we can't afford risking the loss of any of these old
coaches, or their drivers and families either, for that matter.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sun, Feb 2, 2020, 11:36 AM Bruce Hislop via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Rich... its when you come over the brow of a hill at 90Km/hr and there is
> a traffic light just down hill. With only about 5 seconds of yellow light to
> come to a full stop, its a real pucker moment with the OEM GMC brakes. I
> have a one-ton front end and its larger disks have eliminated much of that
> "pucker factor".
>
> Read Albert's specs on the OEM brakes and you will see they were not much
> better than a car's.
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop
> ON Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351850 is a reply to message #351847] |
Sun, 02 February 2020 15:43 |
Olly Schmidt
Messages: 1265
Registered: February 2014
Location: Germany and Scottsville, ...
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On 02.02.20 20:36, Bruce Hislop via Gmclist wrote:
> its when you come over the brow of a hill at 90Km/hr and there is a
> traffic light just down hill
That's why the laws in Germany say: Only drive as fast, so that you can
stop at half the distance you can overlook. Unfortunately, nobody
follows that rule.
--
Best regards
Olly Schmidt
PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
'76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
'73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
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Olly Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x18a9 3a1f 4196 bf22
'76a Eleganza II, VA
'73 Sequoia, SH, Germany
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351851 is a reply to message #351850] |
Sun, 02 February 2020 16:14 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
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Same thing with “keep right except to pass”. Not enough people follow that
one either.
Sully
Bellevue wa.
On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 1:44 PM Olly Schmidt via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> On 02.02.20 20:36, Bruce Hislop via Gmclist wrote:
>> its when you come over the brow of a hill at 90Km/hr and there is a
>> traffic light just down hill
>
> That's why the laws in Germany say: Only drive as fast, so that you can
> stop at half the distance you can overlook. Unfortunately, nobody
> follows that rule.
>
> --
> Best regards
>
> Olly Schmidt
> PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
> '76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
> '73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
>
> _______________________________________________
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351852 is a reply to message #351817] |
Sun, 02 February 2020 16:19 |
Dolph Santorine
Messages: 1236
Registered: April 2011
Location: Wheeling, WV
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At one of the get togethers, someone put 55 MPH in white shoe polish on the back window.
Probably gets better fuel mileage too.
Dolph
DE AD0LF
Wheeling, West Virginia
1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission
“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"
> On Feb 2, 2020, at 5:14 PM, Todd Sullivan via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Same thing with “keep right except to pass”. Not enough people follow that
> one either.
>
> Sully
> Bellevue wa.
>
> On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 1:44 PM Olly Schmidt via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> On 02.02.20 20:36, Bruce Hislop via Gmclist wrote:
>>> its when you come over the brow of a hill at 90Km/hr and there is a
>>> traffic light just down hill
>>
>> That's why the laws in Germany say: Only drive as fast, so that you can
>> stop at half the distance you can overlook. Unfortunately, nobody
>> follows that rule.
>>
>> --
>> Best regards
>>
>> Olly Schmidt
>> PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
>> '76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
>> '73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351853 is a reply to message #351852] |
Sun, 02 February 2020 16:34 |
6cuda6
Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019
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Stopping distance increases exponentially with speed so the difference between 55 verses 65 as an example with an transport truck is almost 45 feet....doesnt sound like much but thats a truck length....
Dolph Santorine wrote on Sun, 02 February 2020 17:19At one of the get togethers, someone put 55 MPH in white shoe polish on the back window.
Probably gets better fuel mileage too.
Dolph
DE AD0LF
Wheeling, West Virginia
1977 26' ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission
"The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"
> On Feb 2, 2020, at 5:14 PM, Todd Sullivan via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Same thing with "keep right except to pass". Not enough people follow that
> one either.
>
> Sully
> Bellevue wa.
>
> On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 1:44 PM Olly Schmidt via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> On 02.02.20 20:36, Bruce Hislop via Gmclist wrote:
>>> its when you come over the brow of a hill at 90Km/hr and there is a
>>> traffic light just down hill
>>
>> That's why the laws in Germany say: Only drive as fast, so that you can
>> stop at half the distance you can overlook. Unfortunately, nobody
>> follows that rule.
>>
>> --
>> Best regards
>>
>> Olly Schmidt
>> PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
>> '76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
>> '73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351854 is a reply to message #351851] |
Sun, 02 February 2020 16:45 |
Olly Schmidt
Messages: 1265
Registered: February 2014
Location: Germany and Scottsville, ...
Karma: 8
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On 02.02.20 23:14, Todd Sullivan wrote:
> Same thing with “keep right except to pass”. Not enough people follow that
> one either.
On any two+ lane street (if it is not a city road) the rules here are:
If you can move to the right and not need to move back to the left
within 20 seconds, you have to move to the right. If you don't, and
police catches you (and they do do that), you get a fine of 80EUR.
--
Best regards
Olly Schmidt
PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
'76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
'73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
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Best regards
Olly Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x18a9 3a1f 4196 bf22
'76a Eleganza II, VA
'73 Sequoia, SH, Germany
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| Re: [GMCnet] Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC! [message #351865 is a reply to message #351863] |
Mon, 03 February 2020 07:23 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
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Oklahoma also, to some extent!
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot com
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Johnny Bridges via Gmclist
Sent: Monday, February 3, 2020 07:20
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Johnny Bridges
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Mini-van has bigger brake disks than GMC!
Georgia is enforcing that.
--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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