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Electric Vehicles [message #351442]

Mon, 20 January 2020 08:09

Christo

Messages: 109
Registered: April 2019
Location: Weymouth, MA

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Hi all,

I had intended to politely take exception to James Hupy's comment on the Electric Fuel Pump thread where he said, "Sale of Electric Vehicles dropped by 7% in 2019.
People that still can think for themselves, aren't buying them," but for some reason his post is only showing up in the email digest and not on the forum. Anyhow, it's probably better to start a new thread. I can think for myself, so here goes:

Global auto sales were down from 94.4 million to 90.3 million. Despite that overall environment, EV sales and market share (the more important figure if we're debating what people are buying) increased. Looking at the components that make up the global figure, EV sales and market share were down in the US. However, both numbers were up in Europe, and although EV sales were down slightly in China, market share increased.

Overall, the multi-year trend is clear: EV investment and market share are growing. In addition, the combined annual growth rate (CAGR) of renewable energy is forecast to be 8.5% between 2019 and 2027. Coal, meanwhile is in decline; its market share in the US has dropped from 52.8% in 1997 to 27.4% in 2018.

Sources:
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/18/fossil-vehicle-sales-in-global-freefall-down-4-7-in-2019-electric-vehicle-sales-continue-to-grow/
https://qz.com/1762465/2019-was-the-year-electric-cars-grew-up/
https://www.marketwatch.com/press-release/renewable-energy-market-size-growth-2019-merger-share-trends-competitive-landscape-statistics-regional-and-g lobal-industry-forecast-to-2027---01-jul-2019-2019-07-01
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_power_in_the_United_States#cite_note-eia.doe.gov-7

Christo Darsch
GMC Nor'easters
1977 Eleganza II - "The Komet"
3.50 Power Drive, Disc Brakes, Alcoas
Weymouth, MA

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351444 is a reply to message #351442]

Mon, 20 January 2020 08:58

hertfordnc

Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC

Karma: 0

Senior Member

While i am inclined to agree with you about electric vehicles. having been on this forum for a while (10 years) i would question the value of the debate.

We can discuss the tangible things like power and battery weight but when it comes to global market forces the information is skewed by political perspective and we do not discuss politics here.

I have learned a great from Mr. Hupy and Matt Collie and others. There is no value in engaging them on things about which they will not be persuaded and do not contribute to moving my coach down the road.

Dave & Ellen Silva Hertford, NC 76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021 It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351453 is a reply to message #351444]

Mon, 20 January 2020 11:13

Christo

Messages: 109
Registered: April 2019
Location: Weymouth, MA

Karma: 0

Senior Member

hertfordnc wrote on Mon, 20 January 2020 09:58

While i am inclined to agree with you about electric vehicles. having been on this forum for a while (10 years) i would question the value of the debate.

We can discuss the tangible things like power and battery weight but when it comes to global market forces the information is skewed by political perspective and we do not discuss politics here.

I have learned a great from Mr. Hupy and Matt Collie and others. There is no value in engaging them on things about which they will not be persuaded and do not contribute to moving my coach down the road.

Your points are well taken, especially the value of learning from folks who have a variety of viewpoints. I'm still very much a noob in the GMC Moho world, learning like crazy, contributing where I can, and enjoying most all of it. I just felt it was important to challenge Mr. Hupy's conclusions as they were based on narrow (US only) data. Peace.

Christo Darsch
GMC Nor'easters
1977 Eleganza II - "The Komet"
3.50 Power Drive, Disc Brakes, Alcoas
Weymouth, MA

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351454 is a reply to message #351442]

Mon, 20 January 2020 11:23

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Christo,

I was glad to see the posted references, too many try to make a point with out any supporting facts. If anybody thinks that I have any opposition to electric vehicles they have not been carefully listening to what I have said.

GMC relevant discussion:

What I personally think is a shame is the lack of small electrics that:
A - Can be towed 4-down (Why not, I do not know, but the same is true for most hybrids.)
B - Can link the regenerative braking on demand from the towing vehicle.
Now wouldn't be neat the get done with day's drive and have a fully charged towed?

End of GMC relevant part -

The big thing in recent years has been the proliferation of charging stations that have allowed Mary's cousin to drive their Tesla from Canada to Miami in a reasonable time frame. They do still have to pay attention or charging locations. (When they come to visit us, they get the coach's 50amp connection.)

Unfortunately, with the blow administered by the prior administration, we will never again have a new car and never able to afford the purchase of same. So, until there is some miracle, I will only get to borrow them.

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351455 is a reply to message #351442]

Mon, 20 January 2020 11:33

6cuda6

Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019

Karma: -6

Senior Member

I would be careful when it comes to sales figures as alot of it gets inflated by selling or leasing to rental car companies....case in point all you have to do is visit a rental car place like i do every week and see the run over of brands they have....one weeks lots of Ford, next week lots of BMW etc.

As for the electric vehicle debate....not going there as i work in the industry and public perception is miles from what is going on in the background.

Rich Mondor, Brockville, ON 77 Hughes 2600

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351463 is a reply to message #351442]

Mon, 20 January 2020 12:29

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

In my opinion, the loss of some monetarybenefits cut into electric car sales. The'y'll recover.

Now a GMC question. Does there exist an electric motor suitable for mounting a pair on something the weight of my GMC? I'm thinking diesel electric much like a locomotive. Once I yank the engine, transmission, final drive, and inner axles, I've a substantial opening in which to mount an engine/generator. Run it at variable speed to meet the load, rectify the output, and drive the wheel motors with a variable frequency drive.The little MV 3 liter ought to make sufficient power easily. No battery for the drive at all. For braking assist, put a couple of dissipators (BIG resistors) on the roof.

--johnny

Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351465 is a reply to message #351463]

Mon, 20 January 2020 12:48

6cuda6

Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019

Karma: -6

Senior Member

One just simply needs to look at BAE [yes British Aerospace Engineering] or ALLison Transmissions if one wanted to cobble up a diesel hybrid....we have been using these combo's for years in our industry...not worth the effort as far im concerned as you need to mount 2 things now instead of one. If you wanted to be zero "e" i would be putting in a hydrogen fuel cell, a couple batteries and an E motor.....just my 2 cents worth.

Johnny Bridges wrote on Mon, 20 January 2020 13:29

In my opinion, the loss of some monetarybenefits cut into electric car sales. The'y'll recover.

Now a GMC question. Does there exist an electric motor suitable for mounting a pair on something the weight of my GMC? I'm thinking diesel electric much like a locomotive. Once I yank the engine, transmission, final drive, and inner axles, I've a substantial opening in which to mount an engine/generator. Run it at variable speed to meet the load, rectify the output, and drive the wheel motors with a variable frequency drive.The little MV 3 liter ought to make sufficient power easily. No battery for the drive at all. For braking assist, put a couple of dissipators (BIG resistors) on the roof.

--johnny

Rich Mondor, Brockville, ON 77 Hughes 2600

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351483 is a reply to message #351442]

Tue, 21 January 2020 08:25

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

Not looking for zero E. Don't want the weight of more batteries. Diesel electric would be a way towards diesel power without havint to hack up the inside of the coach. If the infrastructure for hydrogen cells is ever built, replace the engine/generator with them.
We're seeing electric vehicle infrastructure beginning to emerge, the tax break seems to have had the desired effect - as stated above you can run a Tesla from Canadato Florida now. As in increases, electrics will proliferate. When someone shows a competitive fuel cell, hydrogen infrastructure will begin to appear and eventually proliferate. Should we attain controlled fusion, electricity will prevail.

--johnny

Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351488 is a reply to message #351454]

Tue, 21 January 2020 08:47

Russell K.

Messages: 178
Registered: October 2016
Location: Dunedin, Florida

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Matt,
With a flat towed EV, I like your idea of the regenerative braking on demand from the GMC for use in traffic and long downhill slopes, etc. What if we took it a step further and were able to control power to the wheels of the EV - on demand, for inclines and such; so that the EV could "pull its own weight".

Just a thought.

Russell

1978 Eleganza II, Dunedin, Florida

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351490 is a reply to message #351488]

Tue, 21 January 2020 09:27

6cuda6

Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019

Karma: -6

Senior Member

Doing Regenerative braking while towing is a very "iffy" thing...sounds good in principle but implementation is another thing....batteries generate heat when charging so during operation of the vehicle or charging of the vehicle one must run a cooling system for the batteries in order to control thermal runaway. If one was to do regenerative braking when towing your toad would have to be running in order to control battery temps or at least the battery cooling and management system will need to be.

Now lets look at this a different way....if we could implement CAN Control into the motorhome then we could communicate with our toad allowing us to use the brake command of the RV to actuate the regen feature of the toad [of course the toads CAN system would have to be awake] this giving us the ability to use the toad as a charging source for both our RV batteries and the toads plus a braking aid for the RV at the same time. But the RV battery system would have to meet the same capacity and type as the toad or we run into that dreaded battery differential issue.... I'm not even going to go into what would need to happen once we topped out our charge nor what we would need to do if we had a charge surge or an over charge condition happen and the DC to DC converters needed etc......

In my opinion if you wanted to do this seamlessly....convert the RV to full CAN Control with an electric drive from a Tesla drive system/batteries and BMS that way you could hook up your Tesla as a toad and achieve everything in one shot....just my 2 cents here.

Russell K. wrote on Tue, 21 January 2020 09:47

Matt,
With a flat towed EV, I like your idea of the regenerative braking on demand from the GMC for use in traffic and long downhill slopes, etc. What if we took it a step further and were able to control power to the wheels of the EV - on demand, for inclines and such; so that the EV could "pull its own weight".

Just a thought.

Russell

Rich Mondor, Brockville, ON 77 Hughes 2600

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351492 is a reply to message #351483]

Tue, 21 January 2020 09:42

6cuda6

Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019

Karma: -6

Senior Member

A competitive fuel cell is already out in the general public being run everyday but the infrastructure is lagging behind because i believe people and governments truly dont want zero "E' nor do they understand what is all involved. Yes we are starting to see infrastructure being built to meet the electric vehicle demand, which is great, but its not ideal nor is it cheap and its far from green emission wise. As for the tax breaks, well just ask the people of California about that, not only has it been reseeded but because the EV drivers are not buying fuel, they are not paying road tax so the government will be billing them for every mile driven in the near future.....

Dont get me wrong...im all for innovation, progression and some form of environmental impact reduction but it really needs to start with changing peoples habits and behaviors towards driving.

Now time to step off my soap box....lol.

Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 21 January 2020 09:25

Not looking for zero E. Don't want the weight of more batteries. Diesel electric would be a way towards diesel power without havint to hack up the inside of the coach. If the infrastructure for hydrogen cells is ever built, replace the engine/generator with them.
We're seeing electric vehicle infrastructure beginning to emerge, the tax break seems to have had the desired effect - as stated above you can run a Tesla from Canadato Florida now. As in increases, electrics will proliferate. When someone shows a competitive fuel cell, hydrogen infrastructure will begin to appear and eventually proliferate. Should we attain controlled fusion, electricity will prevail.

--johnny

Rich Mondor, Brockville, ON 77 Hughes 2600

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351501 is a reply to message #351442]

Tue, 21 January 2020 15:09

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

Well, work from the position that people aren't going to change their habits. Who has a competitive fuel cell? Hydrogen and air, hydrogen and oxygen, what with whom? Power output? fuel input for max output? Etc.

--johnny

Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351502 is a reply to message #351501]

Tue, 21 January 2020 15:39

6cuda6

Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019

Karma: -6

Senior Member

We run Ballards fuel cells in a 65kw or an 85kw variety.....hydrogen and air.....work pretty good.

Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 21 January 2020 16:09

Well, work from the position that people aren't going to change their habits. Who has a competitive fuel cell? Hydrogen and air, hydrogen and oxygen, what with whom? Power output? fuel input for max output? Etc.

--johnny

Rich Mondor, Brockville, ON 77 Hughes 2600

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351535 is a reply to message #351442]

Thu, 23 January 2020 09:35

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

85 KW comes out to what - 113 HP. Two of those would be sufficient. ow figure the hydrogen storage, motors and their controllers, and infrastructure. How do you get hydrogen for them, and since you're using air instead of oxygen do you get anything but water at the exhaust?

--johnny

Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351537 is a reply to message #351535]

Thu, 23 January 2020 11:00

6cuda6

Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019

Karma: -6

Senior Member

Yes correct, the exhaust is simply water as you gather....you can buy hydrogene commercially like fuel or some of our custumers have their own plant that reforms it from water/natural gas....

Johnny Bridges wrote on Thu, 23 January 2020 10:35

85 KW comes out to what - 113 HP. Two of those would be sufficient. ow figure the hydrogen storage, motors and their controllers, and infrastructure. How do you get hydrogen for them, and since you're using air instead of oxygen do you get anything but water at the exhaust?

--johnny

Rich Mondor, Brockville, ON 77 Hughes 2600

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Re: Electric Vehicles [message #351540 is a reply to message #351442]

Thu, 23 January 2020 12:17

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

Seems to me electrolysis using solar panels would be the way for an individual to generate it. Given the right capture setup, you could get oxygen for your welding as well.

--johnny

Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: [GMCnet] Electric Vehicles [message #351687 is a reply to message #351444]

Mon, 20 January 2020 09:45

James Hupy

Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010

Karma: -62

Senior Member

You don't have to patronize me. You are right. This is NOT the place for
this discussion.
Sorry, I was only repeating the data that i read in my FINE UPSTANDING
GANNET local newspaper, the Statesman Journal. (Part of the USA TODAY
network). Their facts are ALWAYS verified as to be the truth. It was also
reported by ABC national news, and we know how factual their reporting is.
That's what I get for passing along tidbits taken out of context.
Zealots take up the cause, and you have a revolution before you know it.
(Grin)
Sorry if I offended anyone out there. I am a bit of a "chain yanker".
One of my faults, I suppose.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:59 AM dave silva via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:

> While i am inclined to agree with you about electric vehicles. having
> been on this forum for a while (10 years) i would question the value of the
> debate.
>
> We can discuss the tangible things like power and battery weight but when
> it comes to global market forces the information is skewed by political
> perspective and we do not discuss politics here.
>
> I have learned a great from Mr. Hupy and Matt Collie and others. There is
> no value in engaging them on things about which they will not be persuaded
> and do not contribute to moving my coach down the road.
>
>
> --
> Dave & Ellen Silva
>
> 1972 Revcon Olds 455, toro drive train. All Stock
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Electric Vehicles [message #351696 is a reply to message #351454]

Mon, 20 January 2020 12:25

ljdavick

Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA

Karma: -3

Senior Member

Our Tesla Model 3 is our second electric car. We leased a tiny Chevy Spark EV for 3 years for less than the cost of gasoline previously used by our Nissan Maxima. I’m convinced that cars like our Tesla are perfect primary cars for most of us. The dearth of charging stations is a red herring for most drivers, and frankly there is no “fuel” more ubiquitous than electricity!

It’s only a matter of time before somebody swaps out the fuel tanks for batteries and the engine for a motor on our coaches. It’s not for everyone, but then nothing is.

I wish our Tesla could be towed 4-down, but the upcoming Model Y would likely be better in rutted campground roads!

And for the record I think these kind of discussions are appropriate for this forum.

Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 20, 2020, at 9:56 AM, Matt Colie via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Christo,
>
> I was glad to see the posted references, too many try to make a point with out any supporting facts. If anybody thinks that I have any opposition to
> electric vehicles they have not been carefully listening to what I have said.
>
> GMC relevant discussion:
>
> What I personally think is a shame is the lack of small electrics that:
> A - Can be towed 4-down (Why not, I do not know, but the same is true for most hybrids.)
> B - Can link the regenerative braking on demand from the towing vehicle.
> Now wouldn't be neat the get done with day's drive and have a fully charged towed?
>
> End of GMC relevant part -
>
> The big thing in recent years has been the proliferation of charging stations that have allowed Mary's cousin to drive their Tesla from Canada to
> Miami in a reasonable time frame. They do still have to pay attention or charging locations. (When they come to visit us, they get the coach's 50amp
> connection.)
>
> Unfortunately, with the blow administered by the prior administration, we will never again have a new car and never able to afford the purchase of
> same. So, until there is some miracle, I will only get to borrow them.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy

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Re: [GMCnet] Electric Vehicles [message #351699 is a reply to message #351463]

Mon, 20 January 2020 14:21

James Hupy

Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010

Karma: -62

Senior Member

Picture this if you might. Eastbound on interstate 84 through the Columbia
Gorge in your EV the third week of January, 2020. You fully charge your EV
before you leave Portland, Oregon. As you proceed Eastbound through the
Columbia Gorge, along with several thousand cars, and 16 wheelers.
As you progress through the gorge, the outside temperature drops into
the 20's, and it starts to rain, coating the road surfaces with freezing
rain, which rapidly turns into snow. A 16 wheeler jackknifes blocking all 4
lanes of the freeway, trapping all the traffic, including you in your EV,
behind the crash. Within scant minutes, traffic is backed up several miles
in each direction. Mixed freezing rain and snow continue falling preventing
plows and de-icing and sanding vehicles from being deployed. There you sit
along with thousands of others in a snarl of vehicles. The road surface is
so slippery you can't even stand on it, especially if the gorge winds are
blowing. So there you sit, in your electric vehicle, and you run low on
battery charge running your cabin heat. Gonna be a long, long night binky.
Can't happen to you, right? It is an every winter occurence in the
gorge. Usually, several times. People die there.
No electrics for me, you are on your own to do what you see fit with your
money. It is America, after all.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 10:36 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:

> In my opinion, the loss of some monetarybenefits cut into electric car
> sales. The'y'll recover.
>
> Now a GMC question. Does there exist an electric motor suitable for
> mounting a pair on something the weight of my GMC? I'm thinking diesel
> electric
> much like a locomotive. Once I yank the engine, transmission, final
> drive, and inner axles, I've a substantial opening in which to mount an
> engine/generator. Run it at variable speed to meet the load, rectify the
> output, and drive the wheel motors with a variable frequency drive.The
> little MV 3 liter ought to make sufficient power easily. No battery for
> the drive at all. For braking assist, put a couple of dissipators (BIG
> resistors) on the roof.
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Electric Vehicles [message #351704 is a reply to message #351488]

Tue, 21 January 2020 13:21

Keith V

Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN

Karma: 0

Senior Member

EV's are fun and cool but still very much a rich mans toy.
EV's used to be small and cheap, but no one wanted them.
Then Musk comes along and makes a high end EV and boom, EV's are cool. But cost efficient?
But If anyone thinks Musk is making EV's to save the planet I have a bridge to sell you.
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Russell Keith via Gmclist
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 8:47 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Russell Keith
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Electric Vehicles

Matt,
With a flat towed EV, I like your idea of the regenerative braking on demand from the GMC for use in traffic and long downhill slopes, etc. What if
we took it a step further and were able to control power to the wheels of the EV - on demand, for inclines and such; so that the EV could "pull its
own weight".

Just a thought.

Russell
--
Russell Keith,
1978 E2 "Harry" 403 (still carbureted), Danny Dunn Tranny, Thorley, Stock Brakes w/Remote Vacuum Brake Booster, Quad Bags, Dakota Digital Dash, 6.5 kW
Onan, Dunedin, Florida

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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com

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