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Re: [GMCnet] Summary. Ultimate Demise Of A Well maintained 455 [message #283288]

Mon, 27 July 2015 11:58

BobDunahugh

Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Karma: 11

Senior Member

Jarrod. Shell Rotalla, and Chevron Delo 400 still have the 1200 PPM of ZDDP. I called both companies. Roomers that the ZDDP was take out of C rated oils back in 2006 just seem to keep going on. The best thing to do is to call the phone # on the contained of your brand of choice for correct info.

Bob Dunahugh
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Re: [GMCnet] Summary. Ultimate Demise Of A Well maintained 455 [message #283296 is a reply to message #283288]

Mon, 27 July 2015 13:36

Joe Weir

Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Bob,

Thanks for the research. I am one of those baffled by the lack of ZDDP thing, and scared to death with a new engine.

For those of us who may be luddites on the oil classifications, what exactly is a c-rated oil? How would that rating manifest itself on a label?

Every time I go to the auto parts store, there are about 15 different Rotellas on the shelf. Are all of them ok, or just the "c-rated" ones?

Thanks in advance.

76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center... Columbia, SC.

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Re: [GMCnet] Summary. Ultimate Demise Of A Well maintained 455 [message #283308 is a reply to message #283296]

Mon, 27 July 2015 15:22

powerjon

Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004

Karma: 5

Senior Member

Back in the middle to early 2000’s the level of ZDDP was at the 1600 to 1700 PPM. In 2006 the oil suppliers started to reduce the amount of ZDDp in their oils because of the cat converters. Some reduced it to the 1200 PPM and other removed it all together. The failure of some engines do to the loss of ZDDP did happen, not only in the GMC motorhome community, but in the 50, 60 and 70’s muscle cars groups and some oil suppliers came out with an oil with the higher levels of ZDDP similar to the pre-reduction levels. I am not starting an OIL WAR here! Everyone should run the type of oil that they like. Will a ZDDP additive hurt your engine, I don’t think so as a personal opinion. I run Mobile 1 with a Rislone oil additive at every oil change. Back in the late 1990 when we got our first coach I was running the Rotella T dino oil 15-40 and when the synthetic Rotella T came out I moved to that. The stretch has been using Mobil 1 for many years.

http://rislone.com/product/3x-concentrated-engine-oil-supplement-with-zinc-treatment/

I have also and still sometimes do use the Mondello oil supplement.

http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1018

JR Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMC Eastern States (Charter Member)
GMCGL Tech Editor
GMCMHI
78 GMC Buskirk 30’ Stretch
1975 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan

> On Jul 27, 2015, at 2:36 PM, Joe Weir wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Thanks for the research. I am one of those baffled by the lack of ZDDP thing, and scared to death with a new engine.
>
> For those of us who may be luddites on the oil classifications, what exactly is a c-rated oil? How would that rating manifest itself on a label?
>
> Every time I go to the auto parts store, there are about 15 different Rotellas on the shelf. Are all of them ok, or just the "c-rated" ones?
>
> Thanks in advance.
> --
> 76 Birchaven - New engine, trans, aluminum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, upholstery, adult beverage center... those Coachmen
> guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center...
> Columbia, SC.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan

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Re: [GMCnet] Summary. Ultimate Demise Of A Well maintained 455 [message #283319 is a reply to message #283308]

Mon, 27 July 2015 17:14

Joe Weir

Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Thanks,

Rislone is what I added to the oil (Valvoline VR1) for the initial break-in. Not sure what to put in going forward.

I have read articles that too much zddp may be counterproductive. Here is one for example:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/zddp.htm

Now, the problem with teh interwebs is you can never be sure if what you are reading is true.

I've read here to use Rotella, but there are several different versions and none of them make any reference to Zddp on the label. That was why I asked about c-rated. Does heavy machinery like tractors and bulldozers require ZDDP? All the Rotellas seem to have that rating in common.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: [GMCnet] Summary. Ultimate Demise Of A Well maintained 455 [message #283331 is a reply to message #283288]

Mon, 27 July 2015 19:26

winter

Messages: 247
Registered: September 2007
Location: MPLS MN

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Oils are broken into a couple different api service ratings S and C. S duty oils are for standard spark ignition engines. C are for commercial duty or diesel engines. C oils are thought to be more heavy duty due to the abuse of diesel engines and also seem to retain more of the good additives the epa mandates out of the Gasser oils. Every time the epa requirements change, the second letter after the S or C indexes. I think we are up to SN and CJ now.

I think a CJ or CI oil such as rotella 15w-40 better fits my 403 than the new SN oils. Plus its comparatively cheap and I use gallons of it in my duramax so I have plenty around.

Jerrod Winter
1977 Palm Beach
Green Jelly Bean
Twin Cities, Minnesota

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Re: [GMCnet] Summary. Ultimate Demise Of A Well maintained 455 [message #283336 is a reply to message #283331]

Mon, 27 July 2015 19:38

Joe Weir

Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Ok, that makes sense, thanks.

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Re: [GMCnet] Summary. Ultimate Demise Of A Well maintained 455 [message #283344 is a reply to message #283336]

Mon, 27 July 2015 20:54

LarryInSanDiego

Messages: 336
Registered: September 2006

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Think:

S = Spark ignition

C = Compression ignition

Larry Engelbrecht San Diego, CA '73 26' ex-Glacier TZE063V100319 03/07/73

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Re: [GMCnet] Summary. Ultimate Demise Of A Well maintained 455 [message #283352 is a reply to message #283288]

Mon, 27 July 2015 23:57

BobDunahugh

Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Karma: 11

Senior Member

Joe. There is a small circle on the oil container with the Oil institute oil ratings. Oil for engines that use gasoline will have a like SM. The S stands for Spark ignition engines. The M is I think is the latest reversion. Diesel engines don't have spark plug. Their ignition is by the compression of the air/fuel mix. As a note. Our GMC's have a compression ratio of 8.5 to 1. Diesels are in the 20 to 1 range. Thus the diesel oils will have a CJ rating. In this case the C stands for compression ignition. The J is the latest version. Some oils have only S ratings. Some will have S, and C ratings. Diesel oils are able to handle more oil contamination, more heat, and heavier bearing loads then S rated oils. And do cost more then S rated oils. In 1986 the EPA said that by 2006 the ZDDP content of oil would have to be cut in half. This was done because ZDDP was a contaminate to the converter in the exhaust system. In about 2008 converters were added to new diesel engines. So that ZDDP will at some point be reduced in C rated oils. I buy my oil in a 55 gal barrel. It's 10/30. And is rated S and C. Cost is about $2.70 a qt. They blend the barrel to my specifications. As I run oils to there extremes. My personal opinion is that C rated oils meet the oil demands of our old tech engines vary well. As a note. Oil has a shelf life of around 6 years if the container is keep at a constant temp. And is sealed from oxygen as much as possible. It's the additives in oil that break down over time. Not the oil itself. As to the brand of oil to use in your engine. Pick a brand, and type. Then call that company to see if it has the ZDDP you want. DO NOT go by what anyone tells you. Make the call yourself. Bob Dunahugh

Jarrod. Shell Rotalla, and Chevron Delo 400 still have the 1200 PPM f ZDDP. I called both companies. Roomers that the ZDDP was take out of C rated oils back in 2006 just seem to keep going on. The best thing to do is to call the phone # on the contained of your brand of choice for correct info.

Bob Dunahugh
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Re: [GMCnet] Summary. Ultimate Demise Of A Well maintained 455 [message #283355 is a reply to message #283288]

Tue, 28 July 2015 00:42

BobDunahugh

Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Karma: 11

Senior Member

Joe. That sight you showed was fantastic in it's descriptions of oils. In the racing engines I build. Most have valve springs that are more then double the pressure of a stock engine engines. This is due to the cam lift, and extreme RPM's. That's huge amount of load on the cam, and lifters. The diesel blends have performed extremely well. Synthetic oils are great for modern engines. I just don't see how their great for our old dirty engines. And the mile/time line ratios we drive our GMC's. We seem to be in the 8,000 miles a year range. 3 oil, and filter changes. Thus I know for a fact that my 403 is clean inside. That's cheep piece of mind.

Bob Dunahugh
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Re: [GMCnet] Summary. Ultimate Demise Of A Well maintained 455 [message #283509 is a reply to message #283355]

Thu, 30 July 2015 05:43

Joe Weir

Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Thanks, Bob.

I've picked up a fair bit of knowledge over the years, for a non-mechanic, but never knew what the rating label meant. Being somewhat skeptical of the utility of government ratings in general, I had assumed it was just an assurance that the bottle contained motor oil and not some blend of whale oil and third world children...

The problem with the Internet is that content gets stale. Companies change formulas, governments change regulations. A lot of the oil discussions for the gmc in the archives are 5 to ten tears old. That's like 100 in Internet years. it's good to share this information to update the archive.

And while it seems obvious to you, I never would have thought to just pick a favorite and call the company. I bet it wouldn't take more than a dozen calls to get them to think about either adding that info to the label, or even marketing to the older engine group. You know there are millions of us old car hobbyists out there that would buy. Just saying.

Thanks again.

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Re: [GMCnet] Summary. Ultimate Demise Of A Well maintained 455 [message #283544 is a reply to message #283288]

Thu, 30 July 2015 13:38

lw8000

Messages: 201
Registered: July 2012
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 1

Senior Member

As to the ZDDP discussion, I did this research a couple of years ago and we've been using Amsoil Z-Rod 10W-30, which they publish as having 1440 ppm of ZDDP:

https://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/MotorOil/TSB%20MO-2007-08-08%20Flat%20Tappet.pdf

It's specifically designed for classic engines, and while not cheap, is cheap insurance to me. Good discussion though as if manufacturers keep changing the formulas, I guess it's good practice to periodically check the numbers.

Chris S. - 77 Kingsley, 3.70 FD, mostly OEM - S.E. Michigan

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