Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Brian's front end problem
| Brian's front end problem [message #194655] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 20:08  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Brian Waddell wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 20:32 |
ok thanks.....
my coach has 53k documented miles.....
It wanders all over the road.....
I can not drive it nor can others...
it is exhausting....
ride height is correct front and rear..
and at times of wheel alignment..tires are new.....
wheel alignment by the book once amd then by recommendations here....
bushings uper and lower are tight and in nice shape.....
replaced control sterering arm relay, did nothing. other ofset relay is good..
steering wheel is centered ....
telecpopic blue shaft and c v joint well lubed steering box centered as per manual......
new brakes .
put on 2in spacers.front wheal bearings are tight.
Heavy truck shop can find nothing wrong.....
wanders all over
77 ele 455
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Brian,
My coach was bad, but not that bad.
I took it to a front end shop and they said I needed to spend a lot of money there. I went home and called Dave Lenzi. If I was going to spend money on parts, I wanted his.
Dave said "I know what is wrong.. The steering box is off center." He described the situation further and I listened (and save a lot of money).
The most important picture is in manual X7525 page 9-39 Figure 64. Make absolutely sure that the steering box is on center. It actually has an interference when it is truly on center (it gets tight).
When the steering box is on its high spot, carry that center up to the steering wheel.
When the wheel is straight ahead with the box on its high spot, Check that the relay lever and the idler arm are both square to the front sub frame. (if they are not, you need an adjustable drag link or to adjust the one you have.
Now, set the wheels to ahead and toe with the tie rods ONLY.
The above to me a day and an half to get right and my coach is an absolute please to drive. (When I get to - Mary likes it too much.) (Still Own Dave a good dinner some where.)
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem [message #194659 is a reply to message #194655] |
Wed, 02 January 2013 20:47  |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409
Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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I will be following you instructions in accordance with the maintenance manual. Last fall I gave up once again on this pos. I have now 2.5 months to work on it after 8years of fixing on and off....I have driven it maybe 100 miles...thinking it is somebody else turn.....the pos is getting me and the kids down..........brian 77 ele 455
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: matt7323tze@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 20:08:40 -0600
> Subject: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem
>
>
>
> Brian Waddell wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 20:32
> > ok thanks.....
> > my coach has 53k documented miles.....
> > It wanders all over the road.....
> > I can not drive it nor can others...
> > it is exhausting....
> > ride height is correct front and rear..
> > and at times of wheel alignment..tires are new.....
> > wheel alignment by the book once amd then by recommendations here....
> > bushings uper and lower are tight and in nice shape.....
> > replaced control sterering arm relay, did nothing. other ofset relay is good..
> > steering wheel is centered ....
> > telecpopic blue shaft and c v joint well lubed steering box centered as per manual......
> > new brakes .
> > put on 2in spacers.front wheal bearings are tight.
> > Heavy truck shop can find nothing wrong.....
> > wanders all over
> > 77 ele 455
>
> Brian,
> My coach was bad, but not that bad.
> I took it to a front end shop and they said I needed to spend a lot of money there. I went home and called Dave Lenzi. If I was going to spend money on parts, I wanted his.
>
> Dave said "I know what is wrong.. The steering box is off center." He described the situation further and I listened (and save a lot of money).
>
> The most important picture is in manual X7525 page 9-39 Figure 64. Make absolutely sure that the steering box is on center. It actually has an interference when it is truly on center (it gets tight).
> When the steering box is on its high spot, carry that center up to the steering wheel.
> When the wheel is straight ahead with the box on its high spot, Check that the relay lever and the idler arm are both square to the front sub frame. (if they are not, you need an adjustable drag link or to adjust the one you have.
> Now, set the wheels to ahead and toe with the tie rods ONLY.
>
> The above to me a day and an half to get right and my coach is an absolute please to drive. (When I get to - Mary likes it too much.) (Still Own Dave a good dinner some where.)
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem [message #194671 is a reply to message #194665] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 06:26 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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A friend and I recently rebuilt a steering box -- a first for both of us.
Since I haven't yet installed it, I can't address whether we did it right
and got good results. But I did learn a couple of things which emphasize
the importance of removing the box for any adjustment. I've never seen a
good description of those items, so I'll try to provide one.
There are two independent adjustments which must be made, using an in-lb
torque wrench to set them accurately:
1. The input shaft passes through a bushing which is adjusted by a spanner
wrench (pins fit into the two holes in the top of the bushing). That
bushing is locked in place by the LARGE nut visible at the top of the
steering box. The input shaft moves the worm gear and piston assembly
which constitute the "guts" of the box. The movement of that mechanism
longitudinally (along the input shaft axis) is constrained by a Torrington
thrust bearing which rides between two cupped washers. The first
adjustment to the steering box is to set and lock the bushing so that a
certain amount of torque is required to turn the input shaft. Thus, the
adjustment establishes the preload on that Torrington bearing. It may not
be impossible to make that adjustment with the box in the coach -- but it
would be darned difficult -- moreso than removing the box.
2. The second adjustment, that which is APPARENTLY possible with the box
installed, establishes the engagement of the gears within the box. Those
gears are a rack, which is on one side of the piston assembly mentioned
previously, and a pinion, which is at the internal end of the Pitman shaft.
As the piston assembly (rack) moves up and down in the cylinder of the
steering box, the engaged pinion rotates the Pitman shaft and arm, turning
the wheels. Any play between the rack and the pinion gears is directly
related to free play in the steering. My impression had always been -- for
60 years of automotive tinkering -- that the screw and lock nut visible
(and disturb-able) at the bottom front of the steering box merely pressed
on the end of the Pitman shaft. That supposition suggested that just
tightening it up a little bit would remove end play from that shaft and
"help". 'T'ain't SO! That screw is NOT pressing on a "thrust button".
Rather, it's the threaded end of a ball stud. The ball is permanently
seated in the end of the Pitman shaft. Adjusting the screw moves the
entire Pitman shaft longitudinally and sets the engagement of the pinion
gear with the rack gear. That's a whole 'nother ball of wax! My
misconception was of a much simpler mechanical arrangement which could be
"guessed at". The FACT is that very carefully designed and machined parts
must be precisely engaged AS DESIGNED. There is NO feasible way to
"tighten it slightly and back off a little bit" and achieve the required
gear engagement position -- the torque wrench is required to determine the
correct location.
Only by performing the complete two-part adjustment, using the appropriate
tools, OUT OF THE COACH, can one hope to achieve the proper operation of
the steering box. Despite my long-held opinion.
HTH,
Ken H.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Brian Waddell wrote:
> ...Have not removed steering box ...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem [message #194690 is a reply to message #194671] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 10:38 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Brian Waddell wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 18:32
"ok thanks.....my coach has 53k documented miles.....It wanders all over the road.....I can not drive it nor can others...it is exhausting....ride height is correct front and rear..and at times of wheel alignment..tires are new.....wheel alignment by the book once amd then by recommendations here....bushings uper and lower are tight and in nice shape.....replaced control sterering arm relay, did nothing. other ofset relay is good..steering wheel is centered ....telecpopic blue shaft and c v joint well lubed steering box centered as per manual......new brakes . put on 2in spacers.front wheal bearings are tight. Heavy truck shop can find nothing wrong..... wanders all over."
___________________________________________________________________
Brian,
Looking back over your post, I saw that you mentioned the control arm bushings as being "tight and in good shape". Our resident control arm/bushing expert, Mr Ferguson, will tell you that if they have not been replaced, they are shot. The weight sitting on them for 35 years is enough to ruin them. Steve will also tell you the same about virtually every component in the steering system.
My coach never had the handling issues that some have reported, but Steve and I spent a day at his shop doing the whole 'Steve Ferguson' treatment to the control arms (cleaning, reinforcing, new urethane bushings-lower, offset bushings-upper, and new ball joints). After installing the refurbished components, along with Lensi rebuilt hubs and knuckles, the coach handled as well as it always had, possibly even a little bit better. Steve said that my bushings were some of the best he had seen, but they were still bad.
If every part in the steering system has just a little play, it will all add up to enough to cause handling problems. As Mark pointed out, "rear steer" can be a problem as well. I noticed, when I put the reaction arm brakes on my coach, that the rear steer improved by quite a bit. The torque boxes and sway bars on that system help to keep the bogies in line in much the same way as the true trackers.
Unless the control arm bushings have been replaced, you might want to take a closer look at those, along with tie rod ends, etc.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Brian's front end problem [message #194703 is a reply to message #194655] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 12:51 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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If moving the wheel a few degrees from center shows no slop or delay at the tires, I'd next do a quick check of the rear boggies. If there is slop you will loose direction stability. Seems like everyone is looking up front only.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem [message #194709 is a reply to message #194703] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 14:08 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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John
I agree with that. I was just about to post a message when I read yours.
Several years back, I had a 6 wheel alignment 3 times with total expense about $3000. I finally had a shop in San Jose, CA look at it and they found that the rear bogies were "dog legging". That is, they were both tilted to one side. The took all the shims out that the last three shops had put in and bolted the bogies to the frame without shims. Then they measured everything and shimmed the bogies as much as they could but that wasn't enough. Then they shimmed the spindles to get everything where it should be. It immediately improved the steering and the road wander. It cost me another $1500 to get it done right. A total cost of $4500 over a two year period. And, that was a few years back!
I had been told prior to that the spindles were a press fit and couldn't be shimmed. That isn't true. A new spindle can be slipped into the opening by hand and it is the 4 bolts that hold it in place. After being in for awhile rust and crud forms around the spindle and that makes it very difficult to remove and is why some feel that it must be a press fit. Wes Coughlin also once told me that they are not a press fit.
So, it might not be the front end that is giving Larry his problems.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
On Jan 3, 2013, at 11:51 AM, John R. Lebetski wrote:
>
>
> If moving the wheel a few degrees from center shows no slop or delay at the tires, I'd next do a quick check of the rear boggies. If there is slop you will loose direction stability. Seems like everyone is looking up front only.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Chicago, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> Source America First
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem [message #194724 is a reply to message #194690] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 16:52 |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409
Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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I have new bushings and the offset bushings to install.....I installed one bushing and it was difficult to do without removing the ball joint.......for the rest of them I decided to have it done at the truck shop where I was getting the allignment....the guy who had been doing alignments on trucks buses and motorhomes for 40 yrs said I do not need new bushings....I showed him the one I had removed and he said that it was just fine and there was no reason to replace them.....I considered saying that I want them replaced anyway but did not....thinking about it, I have had many semis and old trucks around this farm here...some with a mil miles ...even old tandem axles....I never had one that needed new bushing so as to be able to steer it....I am thinking that this pos has a car front end on a 13000lb vehicle and is a piss poor design...that is why I was asking about the 1 ton frotn end ....brian
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: carljr3b@yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 10:38:28 -0600
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem
>
>
>
> Brian Waddell wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 18:32
>
> "ok thanks.....my coach has 53k documented miles.....It wanders all over the road.....I can not drive it nor can others...it is exhausting....ride height is correct front and rear..and at times of wheel alignment..tires are new.....wheel alignment by the book once amd then by recommendations here....bushings uper and lower are tight and in nice shape.....replaced control sterering arm relay, did nothing. other ofset relay is good..steering wheel is centered ....telecpopic blue shaft and c v joint well lubed steering box centered as per manual......new brakes . put on 2in spacers.front wheal bearings are tight. Heavy truck shop can find nothing wrong..... wanders all over."
> ___________________________________________________________________
>
> Brian,
>
> Looking back over your post, I saw that you mentioned the control arm bushings as being "tight and in good shape". Our resident control arm/bushing expert, Mr Ferguson, will tell you that if they have not been replaced, they are shot. The weight sitting on them for 35 years is enough to ruin them. Steve will also tell you the same about virtually every component in the steering system.
>
> My coach never had the handling issues that some have reported, but Steve and I spent a day at his shop doing the whole 'Steve Ferguson' treatment to the control arms (cleaning, reinforcing, new urethane bushings-lower, offset bushings-upper, and new ball joints). After installing the refurbished components, along with Lensi rebuilt hubs and knuckles, the coach handled as well as it always had, possibly even a little bit better. Steve said that my bushings were some of the best he had seen, but they were still bad.
>
> If every part in the steering system has just a little play, it will all add up to enough to cause handling problems. As Mark pointed out, "rear steer" can be a problem as well. I noticed, when I put the reaction arm brakes on my coach, that the rear steer improved by quite a bit. The torque boxes and sway bars on that system help to keep the bogies in line in much the same way as the true trackers.
>
> Unless the control arm bushings have been replaced, you might want to take a closer look at those, along with tie rod ends, etc.
> --
> Carl S.
> '75 ex Palm Beach
> Tucson, AZ.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem [message #194728 is a reply to message #194724] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 17:46 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Brian,
Did you happen to ask the guy that did alignments on trucks, buses, and motorhome how many GMC's he had worked on?
Which bushing did you install?
You note that you have a set of new bushings to install; are they urethane?
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1022
The front end may have been sourced from the Toronado; however, it is not the same. It was beefed up to take the weight.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Waddell
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 9:52 AM
To: gnmc list
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem
I have new bushings and the offset bushings to install.....I installed one bushing and it was difficult to do without removing the
ball joint.......for the rest of them I decided to have it done at the truck shop where I was getting the allignment....the guy who
had been doing alignments on trucks buses and motorhomes for 40 yrs said I do not need new bushings....I showed him the one I had
removed and he said that it was just fine and there was no reason to replace them.....I considered saying that I want them replaced
anyway but did not....thinking about it, I have had many semis and old trucks around this farm here...some with a mil miles ...even
old tandem axles....I never had one that needed new bushing so as to be able to steer it....I am thinking that this pos has a car
front end on a 13000lb vehicle and is a piss poor design...that is why I was asking about the 1 ton frotn end ....brian
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Brian's front end problem [message #194750 is a reply to message #194655] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 21:02 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Brian,
Comparing the GMC front end to issues you did or did not have with farm trucks or semi-trucks isn't very meaningful. The reason you never had to replace control arm bushings on any of those, is because, most likely, none of them have control arm bushings. GMC's use independent front suspensions, with "rubber" (or polyurethane or hmwpe, or nitrocelllular urethane, or many other engineered plastics that are used) bushed inner control arm locating points to improve the ride quality. Few if any trucks greater than a 1 ton rating use independent front suspension or control arms, since ride quality is not a primary design concern. They mostly use a solid axle beam usually located by leaf springs with king pin bushings or nowadays, anti-friction bearings. Since it's an all-metal system, wear takes longer, in that system, but believe me, there are few 1,000,000 mile solid axle trucks out there that steer and drive correctly if they still have original king pin bushings. Because of things like UV and ozone exposure to "rubber" age is an issue as well as mileage with control arm bushings. And, there aren't many 35 year old semi's on the road to make a fair comparison with either. I suppose it can be argued whether the GMC should have a beam axle or not, but there are thousands still out there that go down the road straight with one or no hands on the wheel. (Including mine, which I know is not aligned correctly and still drives well). It may take a while to find, but there is something wrong with your particular coach. A heavy duty truck shop that may not be familiar with GMC's, 6 wheel alignments or the best alignment settings that Jim K mentioned for radial tires, may be a hard way to find the problem.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem [message #194758 is a reply to message #194728] |
Thu, 03 January 2013 23:16 |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409
Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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yes he has done them before ...the ride height was important to him.....he used laser lite first to make sure the back stub axles were aligned and tight....I installed the upper A arm inside bushing on the right side....yes urethane from jim.....yes it is a car front end and not a truck front end like all the other mhomes....brian
> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:46:40 +1100
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem
>
> Brian,
>
> Did you happen to ask the guy that did alignments on trucks, buses, and motorhome how many GMC's he had worked on?
>
> Which bushing did you install?
>
> You note that you have a set of new bushings to install; are they urethane?
>
> http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1022
>
> The front end may have been sourced from the Toronado; however, it is not the same. It was beefed up to take the weight.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Waddell
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 9:52 AM
> To: gnmc list
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem
>
> I have new bushings and the offset bushings to install.....I installed one bushing and it was difficult to do without removing the
> ball joint.......for the rest of them I decided to have it done at the truck shop where I was getting the allignment....the guy who
> had been doing alignments on trucks buses and motorhomes for 40 yrs said I do not need new bushings....I showed him the one I had
> removed and he said that it was just fine and there was no reason to replace them.....I considered saying that I want them replaced
> anyway but did not....thinking about it, I have had many semis and old trucks around this farm here...some with a mil miles ...even
> old tandem axles....I never had one that needed new bushing so as to be able to steer it....I am thinking that this pos has a car
> front end on a 13000lb vehicle and is a piss poor design...that is why I was asking about the 1 ton frotn end ....brian
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem [message #194765 is a reply to message #194758] |
Fri, 04 January 2013 00:09 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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| Brian Waddell wrote on Thu, 03 January 2013 23:16 |
y...yes it is a car front end and not a truck front end like all the other mhomes....brian...
|
Brian, it really doesn't matter what kind of front end it is. The fact is that your coach has an apparently serious stability problem and many thousands of identical coaches do not. Obviously it is NOT a class problem but something specific to your coach. I have no idea what it is but something is different (and problematic) about your coach.
Where are you located?
There is a lot we (or at least I) don't know about this problem but perhaps you've brought this up before. I've only been around the group a few months.
My only experience with a vehicle that exhibited the symptoms you describe was a 67 Ranchero that had radials on the front and bias ply tires on the rear. Scariest thing I ever drove.
Grasping at straws here but if you've done everything but the tires, I'd find a nearby black lister and borrow his wheels and tires for a test drive.
Broken frame...really grasping at straws...
A final thought is that if the symptoms are as bad as you describe, what does it look like from a chase car. That is, what moves first, front or rear? I had a Triumph motorcycle back in the 70's and remember being told that if your front end was shaking the problem was in the rear and vice versa.
Good luck and it might be helpful to write down a detailed description of what was done, who did it, what symptoms (if any) changed, etc.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Fri, 04 January 2013 00:10] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem [message #194767 is a reply to message #194765] |
Fri, 04 January 2013 00:25 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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sounds like bad idler arms to me, this makes things really whaco but most all the other stuff tight. Just thinking out loud - thinking has no sound so i am visually thinking out quietly. M 77 pb, anaheim ca.
On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Kerry Pinkerton wrote:
>
>
> Brian Waddell wrote on Thu, 03 January 2013 23:16
>> y...yes it is a car front end and not a truck front end like all the other mhomes....brian...
>
>
> Brian, it really doesn't matter what kind of front end it is. The fact is that your coach has an apparently serious stability problem and many thousands of identical coaches do not. Obviously it is NOT a class problem but something specific to your coach. I have no idea what it is but something is different about your coach.
>
> Where are you located?
>
> There is a lot we (or at least I) don't know about this problem but perhaps you've brought this up before. I've only been around the group a few months.
>
> My only experience with a vehicle that exhibited the symptoms you describe was a 67 Ranchero that had radials on the front and bias ply tires on the rear. Scariest thing I ever drove.
>
> Grasping at straws here but if you've done everything but the tires, I'd find a nearby black lister and borrow his wheels and tires for a test drive.
>
> Broken frame...really grasping at straws...
>
> A final thought is that if the symptoms are as bad as you describe, what does it look like from a chase car. That is, what moves first, front or rear? I had a Triumph motorcycle back in the 70's and remember being told that if your front end was shaking the problem was in the rear and vice versa.
>
> Good luck and it might be helpful to write down a detailed description of what was done, who did it, what symptoms (if any) changed, etc.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brian's front end problem [message #194789 is a reply to message #194751] |
Fri, 04 January 2013 09:36 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Brian,
Mark is correct on how tires can effect the drivability of your coach. Over the years we have run I believe all the combinations that can be run on our coach. When we first got our coach in 1997 (1977 Eleganza II) it had the tire of the day at that time the Goodyear G157 tire. Drove poorly, rut ran and was a 2 hands on the wheel driver. The only change that I made was that I installed a set of Firestone poly sidewall, steel belted tires. When from a monster to drive to a 2 finger steering down the road with no other changes to the coach. I drove those tire for almost 10 years (2007) with no issues, if fact I still have them mounted in the shop to move the Avion around. They still looked good with no splits or unusual side wall ware. The coach was always stored under cover with the tires protected from the sun (UV) when not it use. I think that is extremely important. Since 2004 I have had a large pole building and I can get 3 coaches in the main shop area if I would
need to. For those of you that do not have access to covered or inside storage you should at least cover your tires and keep the tires clean and I use a product called "303 Aerospace Protectant" for the tires after cleaning them.
<http://www.detailedimage.com/303-M2/Aerospace-Protectant-P12/16-oz-S1/?landing_id=2&gclid=CMDi_pj6zrQCFe5FMgodGTIAQQ
or
http://goo.gl/SnX7T
Now we have covered 2 different combination of tires. Next I put the tires and rims off the Avion on the coach that we purchased 2007 as they were newer and in good shape. That again was a different combination of tire styles. The backs were Goodyear G159 and the front were Michelin LTX. That coach drove well also. (sold in 2011) That is the combo that Dave Lenzi put on his coach. Because of that I purchased a set of Goodyear G147 all steel for use on the Avion rear and will put a Poly sidewall Michelin tire on the front. All tires described here were 225 size tires. You should notice a theme here that after the first set of tires the fronts were a Poly sidewall tire. I don't think that the brand is important ( it's a personal choice ) but the front tire should be a Poly Sidewall tire. The tire is more flexible and does not get steered around by the road surface. The all steel tire is not as flexible in the sidewall that will steer the coach and rut run like a son o
f a gun. I speak from many years of personal experience, your observation may vary!
The present coach we are using is the 30' Buskirk Stretch and it has all poly sidewall tires with 245's on the back and 225's on the front. When we picked up the coach it had all 245's both front and back and the tires were in bad shape some original with the coach and the rims were under recall. The coach is suprisingly not as heavy as I would have thought. I finally weight it this fall and the front was 4880#, back 8480# for a gross of 13360#, a fairly well balanced coach front to back. I might even drop down to 235 tire on the back because of the coach weight. To answer the question of why 225's on the front? First the 225's have enough load capacity and second I wanted to take full advantage of the gearing in the coach. The coach has a 3.21 final drive along with a 3.50 chain drive which gives us close to a 3.67 final ratio. That has proven to work well our west in the mountains and big hills. With the bigger 245 tire the ratio dropped to aprox 3.47 ratio.
Final comment, Even if you have done all the good stuff to the front end correctly the tires can cause you additional problems.
Just my personal observations and what I have seen and done. Yours may be the same or vary!
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
Michigan
On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:16 PM, A. <markbb1@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>
> Brian Waddell wrote on Wed, 02 January 2013 20:47
>> I will be following you instructions in accordance with the maintenance manual. Last fall I gave up once again on this pos. I have now 2.5 months to work on it after 8years of fixing on and off....I have driven it maybe 100 miles...thinking it is somebody else turn.....the pos is getting me and the kids down..........brian 77 ele 455
> There is at least one case where steel sidewall tires (vs polyester, or whatever, that is usually recommended on this forum) made the difference. http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&rid=2083&th=18661&goto=154720#msg_154720
> --
> '73 23' Sequoia
> UA (Upper Alabama)
> "Time is money. If you use YOUR time, you get to keep YOUR money."
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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