Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Wheel Wells in or out
| Wheel Wells in or out [message #188356] |
Fri, 26 October 2012 15:26  |
Donovan-formerly Jase386
Messages: 139
Registered: January 2009
Location: Greenville SC
Karma: 0
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does anyone run all the time with their Wheel wells out?
i have been for a while now and curious if it helps or hurts. Other than the water splashing on the bottom of the floor are there any other cons.
Ive only driven mine once in the rain, so no scolding .
Donovan, Greenville SC
1975 Eleganza II
81,500 miles
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| Re: Wheel Wells in or out [message #188362 is a reply to message #188356] |
Fri, 26 October 2012 15:54  |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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been running with mine off. for two years. sure makes looking, fixing on stuff easier.
also as far as keeping things clean. it might get things dirtier on dirt roads, or rain, but it is easy to clean under there too.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: Wheel Wells in or out [message #188388 is a reply to message #188356] |
Fri, 26 October 2012 18:20 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| Donovan-formerly Jase386 wrote on Fri, 26 October 2012 15:26 |
does anyone run all the time with their Wheel wells out?
i have been for a while now and curious if it helps or hurts. Other than the water splashing on the bottom of the floor are there any other cons.
I've only driven mine once in the rain, so no scolding .
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I have been running without mine for several years. I have driven many miles in the driving rain and on dirt roads. Let face it the GMC is not an off road vehicle so what minor amount of time it is off road is relatively unimportant.
I did not start out to run without them, but after my engine fire I removed them during the repairs and never re-installed them. I doubt I will ever reinstall them. I never have vapor lock problems and I believe the cooling air flow is much better. I know I'll be able to get to the top of the engine if it ever catches on fire again. That was a major problem on my first engine fire.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Wheel Wells in or out [message #188401 is a reply to message #188356] |
Fri, 26 October 2012 19:57 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| Donovan-formerly Jase386 wrote on Fri, 26 October 2012 13:26 |
does anyone run all the time with their Wheel wells out? ...
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#1 and #3 have them out. I am not very happy with the batteries and other items all the way to the back of the headlights getting muddy and wet.
#2 has them in and due to the PO installed insulation under the wood floor, I do not want to drive without the wheel-wells. It seems quieter with them in.
Without them, it is much easier to access the engine and it seems to run cooler. But all in all... I think it is better with them in.
I am thinking of splitting them to ease taking them out and reinstalling them. (Reducing wear and tear on the holes in the body lip at the edge of the fender.)
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: Wheel Wells in or out [message #188406 is a reply to message #188397] |
Fri, 26 October 2012 20:21 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| WD0AFQ wrote on Fri, 26 October 2012 19:40 |
Ken, I am thinking I will pull mine next Spring. Just run without them for a while. I am with you, how much dirt is going to fly up on the engine from a blacktop? I keep my engine clean, since I can see it through the glass. The glass will also let me see what is happening when we hit rain. That might convince me to put them back in. We will see. I think the cooling factor will be great in the heated summer days. Might put something on the floor behind the tires and in front, since I have our batteries all up there.
Dan
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Give it a try and see what you think.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Wells in or out [message #188444 is a reply to message #188406] |
Sat, 27 October 2012 14:35 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
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My PO had them out, you can change batteries easier it looks like from above the passenger tire. Is this true?
here in L.A. it never rains about 11 days a year, so out is best here for sure. It could be possible to make a motor cycle
like fender i suppose that would just go over the tire, like a bicycle fender but i am not sure what it would attach too.
that would look cool chrome fenders on the front tires under the batteries. THey may break off and tear the whole fender out.
mickey
77 palm beach
anaheim ca.
frankenostorm = sunny all the time. = frankinsunstein
On Oct 26, 2012, at 6:21 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
>
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> WD0AFQ wrote on Fri, 26 October 2012 19:40
>> Ken, I am thinking I will pull mine next Spring. Just run without them for a while. I am with you, how much dirt is going to fly up on the engine from a blacktop? I keep my engine clean, since I can see it through the glass. The glass will also let me see what is happening when we hit rain. That might convince me to put them back in. We will see. I think the cooling factor will be great in the heated summer days. Might put something on the floor behind the tires and in front, since I have our batteries all up there.
>> Dan
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> Give it a try and see what you think.
>
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Wheel Wells in or out [message #188491 is a reply to message #188356] |
Sat, 27 October 2012 22:55 |
Luvn737s
Messages: 1106
Registered: June 2007
Karma: 2
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Let's ask the engineers among us: Does a water-cooled engine achieve significant cooling from the air passing around the outside? Wouldn't the water in the water jacket carry more energy than air?
I think you end up with more wear and tear on floorboards in the cockpit which are a bear to replace by running commando on the wheel well liners.
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Wells in or out [message #188497 is a reply to message #188495] |
Sun, 28 October 2012 04:10 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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There is a lot of heat transfer from the surface of the engine and attached transmission. Once is gets much below 20 degrees around here it takes a long time to warm up an engine to the point that the thermostat will open and allow coolant flow. One night at 10 below I stopped in a rest area to snooze a while and the engine at at an idle would not maintain enough temperature to run the heater.
What percentage of heat is shed by the engine surface vs. via the coolant probably depends on the outside temperature and the current load applied on the engine. (the amount of fuel it is currently burning)
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Wheel Wells in or out [message #188508 is a reply to message #188491] |
Sun, 28 October 2012 08:55 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Luvn737s wrote on Sat, 27 October 2012 23:55 |
Let's ask the engineers among us: Does a water-cooled engine achieve significant cooling from the air passing around the outside? Wouldn't the water in the water jacket carry more energy than air?
I think you end up with more wear and tear on floorboards in the cockpit which are a bear to replace by running commando on the wheel well liners.
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Randy,
Your question is much more complex than you probably realize. In a road vehicle, of course all the heat is rejected to air - Duh! But, what is often missed is that only a large part - not all - of the cooling is through the "radiator".
In most vehicles, the lube oil is cooled both by running down the outside of the water jacket while returning to the pan, but also be the airflow around the oil pan. So, yes, the air over the engine can contribute to the over-all cooling. If you doubt this, watch the lube oil temperature climb as the pan level gets low, or ask a 4x4 driver slogging through the wood why he had to add an oil cooler.
Another big piece of heat rejection is the exhaust manifolds. A modified passcar motor in marine application has these and as a result, they have a relatively cool engine compartment. This pretty much answers how much heat transfer takes place with airflow over the engine exterior. They also usually have to add external lube oil cooling per the prior paragraph. But do not discount the fact that they also have a great advantage in they are not trying to cool with air as they are usually floating in a high capacity heat sink.
Now, all the flyers will recognize the value of cowl flaps. The increased cooling air flow can only help. I very suspect that, like cowl flaps, the front wheel openings are in a low pressure area when the coach is at road speed. That is just how I see the fender liners, but few aircraft have plywood flooring and batteries (real bad on a 23) in the path of the mud and stuff thrown off the tires. My right front is real full of battery, and they got really nasty when I ran without the right liner for only a few hundred miles. I put it back in, but I keep thinking about it.
As the front wheels spend a vast majority of the time with little or zero angle of attack (unless extreme circumstances are present), if the local parts and structure were shielded only from the spindrift? in straight travel, that would be adequate to the purpose. This is why I am looking and may well cut the wheel well liners away to where they have completed the turn toward the flat side.
I have considered splitting them, much like the split fan shroud plan, but with so few remaining screws and such ease of removal, I don't see any gain there.
The above is just one engineer's opinion.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Wheel Wells in or out [message #188515 is a reply to message #188508] |
Sun, 28 October 2012 09:42 |
klassic kampers
Messages: 93
Registered: July 2008
Location: greer,s.c./ellijay,ga
Karma: 0
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quite a few years ago I worked with owners of square body gm trucks 73-87 (15/25series 73-87 and 35 series 73-91)that overheated in the southern climate (heat) when pulling their car trailers at interstate speed..some had installed flex fans which made noise and cost enough horsepower loss actually notice....also they had installed large aluminum radiators which did not cure the problem.......in my backyard shade-tree engineering dept. I decided it was not the air flow IN through the radiator but the air flow OUT of the engine compartment....the engine fan speed at the engines(454c.i.)maximum torque output was pulling air in faster than it(the air) could be evacuated from the engine compartment... ..removing the hood confirmed this, so we cut holes in the inner fenders and used frontward facing scoops on the road side of the inner fenders to attempt to get the air out....my hillbilly theory was at speed the tires would also help "suck" the air out through the holes and the scoops.......worked on the trucks we did this on but have never tried on a GMC M/H.....right now the liners are out of my personal GMC M/H but this winter I intend to fabricate a partial liner to protect the headlamps, batteries, and fuel lines/filler....carburetion and ignition curve are easier to calibrate when the engine is living not in a hot box but that's another story.... the idea that a piece of road debis could rupture the fuel lines/filler and a 12volt wire at the same time got me thinking....
warning:: these are the experiences and opinions of one mechanic and do not necessarily reflect the views of the GMC motor home community.....proceed with caution..
as usual, Disclaimer on file
Mike Stewart
1973 GMC 26' Canyonlands /
1973 B.S.A. B50 street tracker-----
Greer,S.C/Ellijay,Ga
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Wells in or out [message #188545 is a reply to message #188529] |
Sun, 28 October 2012 16:13 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| lcoldren wrote on Sun, 28 October 2012 12:11 |
... Years ago Gene Fisher's site had a link to "Wheel Well Ventilation", what it showed was putting a 10"x10" louvered metal vent from Home Depot on the inside wall of the wheel well liner to allow air movement between the wheel well and the engine compartment. Works well for me to keep dirt out and allow more ventilation. ...
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Another idea from Bert:
<http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/soor-mini-rally-24-july-2004/p8756.html>
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Wells in or out [message #188550 is a reply to message #188545] |
Sun, 28 October 2012 16:55 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Marginally on topic: A couple of years ago my strength/willingness
quotient reached the point that I had to have help installing/removing
batteries in the passenger side Ragusa tray. So I had to devise a
mechanical aid: http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5425-battery-lift.html
That worked very well until last Friday, when I had to R&R the engine
battery without the coach on the service rack. I literally could NOT do
the job, even with the inner 1/2 of the wheel well liner removed, without a
"tool".
That tool turned out to be a ramp, similar to those used for loading
wheeled vehicles onto trailers: an 18" or so long 1"X6" board with a 6"
wide "angle iron" (actually bent from a scrap of aluminum diamond plate)
"hook" on one end. That hook, screwed to the board at an angle, hooks over
the rear vertical flange of the Ragusa tray. The angle of the hook
positions the other end of the board on top of the outer end of the upper
A-arm. Positioned properly (it might help to angle that end of the board
too), the hook keeps the board in position and prevents the loose end from
slipping off of the A-arm.
With that device in place, it was quite easy to pry the battery over the
tray's flange and drag it onto the board. With the board as an unloading
ramp, I easily slid the Gp27 battery into a position in which even my 75 yo
self could lift it to the ground. Re-installation was even easier since I
didn't have to lift the battery over the tray flange.
Try it, you might like it. I'm tempted to find a hiding place for it in
the coach. Trouble is, when I inevitably need it on the road, I'll either
forget I've got it or where I hid it. :-(
Ken H.
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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