| Propane refrigerant - Duracool - EnviroSafe [message #175144] |
Sat, 30 June 2012 15:04  |
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Bill Freeman
Messages: 122
Registered: March 2004
Location: Colerain, NC
Karma: 1
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I just ordered 24 cans of EnviroSafe refrigerant from this dealer. http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm
Two 12 can cases for $100 including shipping was best price I could find.
Also found an interesting forum post about using regular propane here:
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/duracool-or-r134a/23302/page1/
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I've used ordinary cooking propane in my home split air conditioning system, and it's been working fine. It's an old R22 system, and it has a slow leak somewhere in the plumbing, enough to require a full recharge each year for a couple of hundred dollars each time. Rather than spending the $7K, or so, that it would take to fully replace the system, I decided to vacuum out the system and replace it with propane. I've been delighted with the results. The leak is outside the living space and very small, so I don't even smell the odorant that's added to the gas (the "skunk" or "rotten egg" smell), either inside or outside the house. If the air conditioner stops working, I just grab a 1-lb. disposable cylinder of Coleman stove propane or what-have-you, hook up the hose to the fill valve and dump the gas in, and it's good to go for the summer. (The biggest problem was finding an adapter that would go from a disposable cooking cylinder to air conditioning service fittings. I think I ended up fabricating my own from brass parts scrounged from camping outfitters and hardware stores.)
A couple of caveats: 1. Air conditioning systems don't like air. Air doesn't harm the system, but it's a lousy refrigerant, so you need to get it out of the system. Purge your service hoses with Duracool/propane before you hook them up to the system. 2. Air conditioning systems don't like moisture. The moisture attacks metal parts and will eventually cause the compressor valves and rings to fail. That's the main reason systems get vacuumed out for hours and hours; it's not the air so much as the water vapor that needs to be removed.
Water is heavier than propane. To improve your chances of not getting water into the system if you choose to use cooking propane, chill the bottle upside down in the freezer for an hour or two. Then, before you hook up to the air conditioning system, purge the bottle for a second while holding it upside down. If there's any condensed water in there, it will be blown out during the purge.
If you don't own a vacuum pump, and don't care too much because your car is no longer in showroom condition, you can still charge the system with cooking propane and make it work. Fill it up with the gas, then open the valve and let it leak down to nearly atmospheric pressure. You may want to run the compressor briefly to mix things up and push the propane through the system. Make sure the engine is OFF when you purge the system and do the work out in the open air, so an inadvertent spark doesn't send you to the Moon. Repeat the fill/purge process four or five times. By the time you've done it the fifth time, you'll have vented $1 of propane and gotten rid of 99.999% of the air and moisture in the system -- and a $1200 commercial vacuum pump sucking for five or six hours could hardly do better.
When you run Duracool or propane in an automotive system, stay with the recommended performance numbers for vent temperature in the vehicle cab, which is more important than the weight of refrigerant in the cooling loop. If the system gets too cold, it will ice up and stop blowing cold air. If that happens, you may need to release some Duracool to tone down the performance. Typical temperature at the vent should be no lower than 34-36 degrees Fahrenheit, just above freezing, with the windows rolled up and outside air vents closed.
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Bill Freeman
78 Royale 73 Sequoia
Colerain, North Carolina
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| Re: Propane refrigerant - Duracool - EnviroSafe [message #175172 is a reply to message #175144] |
Sat, 30 June 2012 20:41  |
bobby5832708
Messages: 237
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winter Springs FL
Karma: 3
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Bill,
I did the same thing a couple of years ago, the Envirosafe stuff works great. With 24 cans I've got a lifetime supply!
With regards to the charge level, I put in about a half can after the sight glass cleared, probably 3 cans total (or so), I don't really remember. I've still got the original 1974 compressor and with some air flow modifications to the dash system it works acceptably. Not great (the airflow still sucks compared to my Ford Escape daily driver) but it's at least useable.
The only issue I have is after about an hour the system slowly starts to freeze up and the airflow slows down. I then put the control in 'vent' for a couple of minutes and when the airflow comes back I turn on the compressor again. One of these days I will have to readjust the externally mounted thermal cycling switch a couple of degrees warmer.
Currently I'm beachfront in Ormond Beach FL and on the trip over yesterday afternoon we used only the dash air and were comfortable. Donna sometimes complains about being too cold, a very unusual complaint for a GMC dash air conditioner, and shuts the ducts off on the passenger side.
Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane refrigerant - Duracool - EnviroSafe [message #175193 is a reply to message #175191] |
Sun, 01 July 2012 02:56 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Propane can be used as a refrigerant but a mixture of propane and Iso-butane such as Duracool or hc12a will work better.
The addition of the isobutane will allow the propane to condense easier and create lower head pressures in the system.
What do you mean by "ordinary" propane? If you mean the propane you purchase for your bar-b-que that is loaded with other gases such as butane and methane. It likely only has about 90% propane. It will work but is less efficient than purified propane, which is 99% plus propane. It becomes more efficient with the addition of a small amount of isobutane.
If I had to freeze a container to try to remove water vapor from the gas I wouldn't consider putting it into my air conditioning system.
Duracool is going to cost you $20 or less for the amount needed to charge your GMC motorhome. Why mess around with an inferior product that might contaminate your system to save a couple of bucks?
Emery
On Jun 30, 2012, at 10:51 PM, Bill Freeman <flipflapco@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Emery,
>
> You are absolutely right about too little refrigerant leads to icing. I didn't notice that error in the text I clipped. I was mainly interested in the claim he made that you could just use ordinary propane. I would try that myself if I hadn't already ordered a new shipment of the Envirosafe branded stuff.
>
> What do you think of his suggestion to put a propane bottle in the freezer to solidify any water in the propane? Sounds like that should work.
> --
> Bill Freeman
> 78 Royale 73 Sequoia
> Colerain, North Carolina
> http://tinyurl.com/yx7nra
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