Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
| [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156077] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 13:46  |
Greg and April
Messages: 263
Registered: December 2011
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While looking over some of the various For Sale lists of GMC's, I have
noticed that a number of them have the Cadillac 500 engine, what can folks
tell me about that engine ( how do they compare with the 403 and the 455 ),
pros and cons of using it - and other things like that?
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156087 is a reply to message #156077] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 14:59  |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
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here is an old post on the subject
--------------------
.
.--------------------------------
*Dyno tests*
----------------------------------------------------------
I was digging through some old GM test data and thought I would share the
following:
*Olds 455* test data with an uncertain pedigree (Toro or not? Test
conditions?) and it showed a torque at 2800 and below of about *398*. No
data below 2000, but other tests implied a peak torque at 1200 to 1600 rpm.
Peak hp was 234 at 3600.
*Cadillac 500 EFI* - peak torque *395* at 1200 and 1600 rpm. Peak hp 225
at 3600. The engine was knock limited and spark was retarded about 10
degrees from MBT at most rpms. Both of these are consistent with other big
GM engines built at the time(except for the knock-limited part). Max
torquewas always below 2000 rpm and peak hp was never above 4000.
That's not
counting performance engines like the Chevy 427 or the Chrysler Hemi, of
course.
Olds 350 EFI (Cadillac Seville) - peak torque 290 at 1200, peak power 190
at 4400 and still rising. Not knock limited.
If the Cad 500 were tested on today's fuels would it be knock-limited?
Don't know.
.
Hopefully this data will be useful to somebody. GaryC
-------------------------------
I love, ( I do it because I can), but it would be hard to make an informed
decision on these engines based upon the reported performance vs the dyno
test data.....
gene
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Greg and April
<gregandapril@earthlink.net>wrote:
> While looking over some of the various For Sale lists of GMC's, I have
> noticed that a number of them have the Cadillac 500 engine, what can folks
> tell me about that engine ( how do they compare with the 403 and the 455 ),
> pros and cons of using it - and other things like that?
> .
>
> Greg H.
>
> I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
> to keep me company.
>
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156103 is a reply to message #156087] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 16:41 |
 |
hnielsen2
Messages: 1434
Registered: February 2004
Location: Alpine CA
Karma: 0
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Here is the Dyno pull for our built 455.
Torque 477.1 at 3100
H P 349.3 at 4600
Sweet spot just where I like it at 3100 RPM
Jim B's first cam " Comp Cams", roller rockers, double roller timing Chain,
Mondelo push rods, Howell FI, Stock Intake, Stock Exhaust, Dick Paterson
Distributor.
Running 3:70 final drive from Jim K.
Howard
Alpine Ca
26' Canyon Lands
Not Quite stock
----- Original Message -----
From: "gene Fisher" <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 12:59
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
here is an old post on the subject
--------------------
.
.--------------------------------
*Dyno tests*
----------------------------------------------------------
I was digging through some old GM test data and thought I would share the
following:
*Olds 455* test data with an uncertain pedigree (Toro or not? Test
conditions?) and it showed a torque at 2800 and below of about *398*. No
data below 2000, but other tests implied a peak torque at 1200 to 1600 rpm.
Peak hp was 234 at 3600.
*Cadillac 500 EFI* - peak torque *395* at 1200 and 1600 rpm. Peak hp 225
at 3600. The engine was knock limited and spark was retarded about 10
degrees from MBT at most rpms. Both of these are consistent with other big
GM engines built at the time(except for the knock-limited part). Max
torquewas always below 2000 rpm and peak hp was never above 4000.
That's not
counting performance engines like the Chevy 427 or the Chrysler Hemi, of
course.
Olds 350 EFI (Cadillac Seville) - peak torque 290 at 1200, peak power 190
at 4400 and still rising. Not knock limited.
If the Cad 500 were tested on today's fuels would it be knock-limited?
Don't know.
.
Hopefully this data will be useful to somebody. GaryC
-------------------------------
I love, ( I do it because I can), but it would be hard to make an informed
decision on these engines based upon the reported performance vs the dyno
test data.....
gene
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Greg and April
<gregandapril@earthlink.net>wrote:
> While looking over some of the various For Sale lists of GMC's, I have
> noticed that a number of them have the Cadillac 500 engine, what can folks
> tell me about that engine ( how do they compare with the 403 and the
> 455 ),
> pros and cons of using it - and other things like that?
> .
>
> Greg H.
>
> I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass
> band
> to keep me company.
>
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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All is well with my Lord
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156106 is a reply to message #156077] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 16:46 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Greg,
Here's an article by Larry Weidner and Jim Wagner on swapping to a Caddy 500.
http://www.gmcws.org/Tech/Caddy_Swap.pdf
Here's a link to two companies that are Caddy 500 specialists:
Maximum Torque Specialties - http://www.500cid.com/
The Cad Co - http://www.cad500parts.com/
Unfortunately the Master Caddy builder, Jerry Potter, has retired.
There is a book entitled "Big Inch Cadillac" which has a bunch of good dope on how to build a 540 C.I. Caddy. I did a Google search
but it appears it's out of print.
As far as the advantages to swapping to a Caddy goes I would suggest that you do a Google search for Cadillac 500 as it will return
a ton of articles about that engine.
I reckon I read every bloody one of them and came to the conclusion that IMHO the Caddy 500 is the best engine that GM ever built.
Oh oh, I'm in trouble now!
I have one here in Sydney will be setup to run on AutoGas.
Sammy, JimK out in Fremont has an EFI / twin turbo charged / Caddy 540 in his personal GMC. HE has the braggin' rights so it's not
worth anyone else's time to try for them! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg and April
While looking over some of the various For Sale lists of GMC's, I have
noticed that a number of them have the Cadillac 500 engine, what can folks
tell me about that engine ( how do they compare with the 403 and the 455 ),
pros and cons of using it - and other things like that?
Greg
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156139 is a reply to message #156077] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 19:25 |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
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Never had a GMC with a 455. But my 78 Royale came with a really great runnin 403. Did a full pull,,,,Manny tranny, .020 over 500 Caddy. Or 507ci. Edle intake and a "bunch" of other mods. Before it felt like a big motorhome. Now it feels like a van. I,ve had a 33' 16000lb southwind with a 454. A 24' Broughm with a 460(hugh sucking sound,,,8mpg always,,,not 8.2 or 8.5) and a 21' Starflight with a V10(now that was a hotrod). The GMC now drives like a loaded van!!!! Stops real well now with the Hubler conversion!,,,,,PL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156146 is a reply to message #156139] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 19:48 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Paul,
So CADDY powered GMC's rule! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Leavitt
Never had a GMC with a 455. But my 78 Royale came with a really great runnin 403. Did a full pull,,,,Manny tranny, .020 over 500
Caddy. Or 507ci. Edle intake and a "bunch" of other mods. Before it felt like a big motorhome. Now it feels like a van. I,ve had a
33' 16000lb southwind with a 454. A 24' Broughm with a 460(hugh sucking sound,,,8mpg always,,,not 8.2 or 8.5) and a 21' Starflight
with a V10(now that was a hotrod). The GMC now drives like a loaded van!!!! Stops real well now with the Hubler conversion!,,,,,PL
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156151 is a reply to message #156146] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 20:18 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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ever wonder why Mondello, and Patterson, ( our two most famous builders) ,
never liked Cads. and still do not ?
gene
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> So CADDY powered GMC's rule! ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Leavitt
>
> Never had a GMC with a 455. But my 78 Royale came with a really great
> runnin 403. Did a full pull,,,,Manny tranny, .020 over 500
> Caddy. Or 507ci. Edle intake and a "bunch" of other mods. Before it felt
> like a big motorhome. Now it feels like a van. I,ve had a
> 33' 16000lb southwind with a 454. A 24' Broughm with a 460(hugh sucking
> sound,,,8mpg always,,,not 8.2 or 8.5) and a 21' Starflight
> with a V10(now that was a hotrod). The GMC now drives like a loaded
> van!!!! Stops real well now with the Hubler conversion!,,,,,PL
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156162 is a reply to message #156151] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 21:19 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Gene,
For the same reason that Maximum Torque Specialties, and the Cadillac Company don't like Oldsmobile engines! ;-)
Also there are:
Chevy people and Ford people
Holden people and Ford people
Maserati people and Ferrari people
Honda people and Nissan people
Jaguar people and Aston Martin people
And so on ad infinitum - or at least until you run out permutations! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gene Fisher
ever wonder why Mondello, and Patterson, ( our two most famous builders) ,
never liked Cads. and still do not ?
gene
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156169 is a reply to message #156162] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 21:56 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Don't get me wrong, I really don't care,
and this is not my field, so I lean on others ;>)
but it is hard to call the cad "the worlds greatest engine..
example:
Like the Olds 455. Compared with a 350 Chevy's 3.48-inch stroke, a 454
Chevy's 4.0-inch stroke, a 455 Buick's 3.90-inch stroke, and even a 500
Cadillac's 4.060-inch stroke, the Olds 455 enjoys a monster 4.25-inch
stroke. To duplicate that with most other brands means stepping into an
aftermarket stroker crank.
What's it translate into? According to Mondello's general manager, Lynn
Wellfringer, "You just can't duplicate the torque curve of an Olds
big-block with any other brand."
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156170 is a reply to message #156169] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 22:28 |
Dave Mumert
Messages: 272
Registered: February 2004
Location: Olds, AB, Canada
Karma: 0
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Hi Gene
The Cadillac 472 has a 4.060 inch stroke, the 500 has a 4.304, both have a
4.300 inch bore.
Dave
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
>
> Don't get me wrong, I really don't care,
>
> and this is not my field, so I lean on others ;>)
>
> but it is hard to call the cad "the worlds greatest engine..
>
> example:
>
>
> Like the Olds 455. Compared with a 350 Chevy's 3.48-inch stroke, a 454
> Chevy's 4.0-inch stroke, a 455 Buick's 3.90-inch stroke, and even a 500
> Cadillac's 4.060-inch stroke, the Olds 455 enjoys a monster 4.25-inch
stroke.
> To duplicate that with most other brands means stepping into an
aftermarket
> stroker crank.
>
> What's it translate into? According to Mondello's general manager, Lynn
> Wellfringer, "You just can't duplicate the torque curve of an Olds
big-block
> with any other brand."
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156171 is a reply to message #156169] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 22:58 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Gene,
We're just a havin' friendly chat about the merits of the Caddy and the Olds; BOTH of which are good engines!
As far as "but it is hard to call the cad "the worlds greatest engine."
I AGREE 100%!!!
I noted that the "Caddy 500 is the best engine that GM ever built"
I've read a ton of articles on the 500 to form that opinion. Here's an article that I read which provided the icing on the cake!
YES, I realize that this engine would be TOTALLY inappropriate in a GMC. It convinced me to follow Jerry Potters advice as far as
how to build the LPG engine for The Blue Streak.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/0609em_cadillac_performance_parts_engine/viewall.html
The Caddy 500 is a great engine; however, it is far from the world's greatest engine. That discussion could / would go on FOREVER!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gene Fisher
Don't get me wrong, I really don't care,
and this is not my field, so I lean on others ;>)
but it is hard to call the cad "the worlds greatest engine..
example:
Like the Olds 455. Compared with a 350 Chevy's 3.48-inch stroke, a 454
Chevy's 4.0-inch stroke, a 455 Buick's 3.90-inch stroke, and even a 500
Cadillac's 4.060-inch stroke, the Olds 455 enjoys a monster 4.25-inch
stroke. To duplicate that with most other brands means stepping into an
aftermarket stroker crank.
What's it translate into? According to Mondello's general manager, Lynn
Wellfringer, "You just can't duplicate the torque curve of an Olds
big-block with any other brand."
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156173 is a reply to message #156167] |
Mon, 09 January 2012 23:15 |
Greg and April
Messages: 263
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<shrug> You have the advantage on me then.
I understand basic 4 cycle theory and I can change oil and gap a sparkplug,
but if I ever really open an engine up, the magic smoke goes away, and it
never runs again.
Things like torque and horsepower, are nebulous things that do not make any
sense to me, other than if you want a vehicle to move, you have to have some
of both - to much of one and not enough of the other and you may not get
anyplace, anytime soon.
This is why engine specs may as well be ancient Egyptian for all that I can
make heads or tails of it, and web searches on them only confuse me
further - I just am not able to separate the wheat from the chaff, with this
subject.
.
Greg H.
I don't just march to the beat of my own drum - I have an entire brass band
to keep me company.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Mueller" <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 20:39
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
Greg,
Thanks, I already have one and have read it cover to cover a number of
times. Information in that book (along with other sources)
lead me to state "Caddy 500's Rule!" ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500? [message #156201 is a reply to message #156171] |
Tue, 10 January 2012 06:33 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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It depends on what you're used to, as well as what yopu're gonna do with it. For a given displacement, an undersquare engine tendfs toward torque and power peaks at lower RPM than a square or oversquare design - at trhe cost of top end RPM due to increased piston speed. As long as it's a big slow turning torquey design, you can put giant bearings in it without worrying about high speed friction or iling, and the thing will run happily pretty much forever - a great idea for a GMC, and not a bad one for a large sedan that Grandma and Grandpa tool down to the local pub in silence and sikly smooth comfort. Surely you can hotrod it, but it's a silk purse form a sow's ear. And, what's sillieer than a one eared sow with a silk purse anyhow?
--johnny
'76 23'transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Cadillac 500?
Gene,
We're just a havin' friendly chat about the merits of the Caddy and the Olds; BOTH of which are good engines!
As far as "but it is hard to call the cad "the worlds greatest engine."
I AGREE 100%!!!
I noted that the "Caddy 500 is the best engine that GM ever built"
I've read a ton of articles on the 500 to form that opinion. Here's an article that I read which provided the icing on the cake!
YES, I realize that this engine would be TOTALLY inappropriate in a GMC. It convinced me to follow Jerry Potters advice as far as
how to build the LPG engine for The Blue Streak.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/0609em_cadillac_performance_parts_engine/viewall.html
The Caddy 500 is a great engine; however, it is far from the world's greatest engine. That discussion could / would go on FOREVER!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gene Fisher
Don't get me wrong, I really don't care,
and this is not my field, so I lean on others ;>)
but it is hard to call the cad "the worlds greatest engine..
example:
Like the Olds 455. Compared with a 350 Chevy's 3.48-inch stroke, a 454
Chevy's 4.0-inch stroke, a 455 Buick's 3.90-inch stroke, and even a 500
Cadillac's 4.060-inch stroke, the Olds 455 enjoys a monster 4.25-inch
stroke. To duplicate that with most other brands means stepping into an
aftermarket stroker crank.
What's it translate into? According to Mondello's general manager, Lynn
Wellfringer, "You just can't duplicate the torque curve of an Olds
big-block with any other brand."
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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